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 Very noisy on SSB

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Tonyvic
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PostSubject: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeFri Feb 04, 2022 3:04 pm

I have mainly used FM since coming back to CB about 12 months ago, I get a fairly constant S5 of the usual FM noise which is OK.
As soon as I go to SSB it's S7-8 which is driving me mad, Below is a link to a net I was listening to last night to demonstrate what I hear.
Could it be due to the antenna (Half wave Silver Rod) being so close to the house (T & K brackets) and partialy below the ridge, or maybe I need some sort of choke?
Or some other reason, any help will be welcomed.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fs1nwrFR1LT_UUsRd8n4ABHRPeRqGX5B/view?usp=sharing

Cheers & 73s,
Tony

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeFri Feb 04, 2022 3:50 pm

That would be quite annoying. I had similar issues and decided to move the antennas as far away from any house as possible. Now it's fairly noise free.
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeFri Feb 04, 2022 4:36 pm

I feared someone would say that. Sad My station manager would sack me if I spent more money to pay someone to move it, my days of climbing ladders is well past.
I was already considering a T2LT or similar at the end of the garden where we have some cypress leylandii trees.Not sure if it would work amongst the branches if I put it inside a length of 20mm pvc tube.
Any thoughts,
Cheers,
Tony

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeFri Feb 04, 2022 6:02 pm

It's a great idea Tony. Trees and branches should not affect things too much. My 28MHz antenna is a half wave wire with a 49:1 UnUn taped to a 10m fibreglass pole and tied to a fig tree, you can barely see it. Same for the HF antenna which is in an apple tree.

In the middle is the ally pole for the 6m antennas. I have some paint which I must get around to using to camouflage it as it pokes out through the top of a banana tree Smile

Downside is nearly 40m of coax to get from the end of the garden to my office in the basement, not really an issue with half decent cable and relatively low frequencies.
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 05, 2022 6:55 am

You could try common mode chokes to see if it's pickup on the coax.
One close to the feed point and one as near to the rig as possible.
Wind a ferrite on the DC lead as well for good measure.

If you want a cheap choke 5 turns of RG58 wound 4.25inch aircore will give 8k of impedence
from 26 to 28MHz.

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 05, 2022 3:24 pm

Roger,
Thanks for the reply it's well worth a try then. Unlike your 40m run, mine would only need to be 20m but unsure if all the small twigs and needle type leaves touching the pvc tube would adversly affect it.

Mike,
Many thanks for the choke suggestion but how close to the feed point would it need to be? I can only reach a point about 9ft away from the bottom of the antenna without the use of an extension ladder. That is only about 9ft away from the rig as well, see link to photo:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/sban8smpFgfy71Jk8 

Cheers,
Tony
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSun Feb 06, 2022 5:56 am

Tonyvic wrote:
Roger,
mine would only need to be 20m but unsure if all the small twigs and needle type leaves touching the pvc tube would adversly affect it.

Mike,
Many thanks for the choke suggestion but how close to the feed point would it need to be? 

Anything touching the PVC tube won't make much difference. The effect of foliage is mainly on VHF and higher frequencies. 

A choke ideally should be as close to the antenna feedpoint as possible however for CB/11m 9ft would work out quite well being roughly a quarter wavelength as the antenna can use the first 9ft from the antenna socket as a RF ground should it need to.

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSun Feb 06, 2022 9:59 am

Thanks Conor,
That gives me hope on both fronts. I will go ahead with both options in the coming week if I can, and will update any progress.

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 3:44 pm

Update,
Made T2LT in PVC tube pushed it up amongst the branches and tie wrapped it to a fence post which is directly beneath. The choke is only about 6ft from the ground but about the same height ASL as my bottom Silver Rod due the garden slopping uphill. The noise is considerably lower with it but it's reported that transmitted signal is lower to a station about 15 miles away, so working on that.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1i6GTzUL7Zg7qnOGL0bUtf82oRoEnmwVo/view?usp=sharing

Chokes on the Silver Rod will need a bit more time, but I will get there!

Tony


Last edited by Tonyvic on Sat Feb 19, 2022 7:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 5:51 pm

Tony,   that amount of noise seems normal to me, but then Im in a built up area full of qrm.

As suggested, getting your aerial away from housings will always help, if not higher.  

Also, remember the ss6900 has a 45db Gain ! 

How about raising your twig that extra half meter?
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 6:27 pm

ss6900 45db gain ???.
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 6:36 pm

Not much qrm in the video Tony.
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 7:02 pm

NoMad wrote:
Tony,   that amount of noise seems normal to me, but then Im in a built up area full of qrm.

As suggested, getting your aerial away from housings will always help, if not higher.  

Also, remember the ss6900 has a 45db Gain ! 

How about raising your twig that extra half meter?
NoMad
S7 -8 Normal????
The result in my second video S1 -2 which is with the T2LT 20M away from the house which is great but as I mentioned transmit doesn't seem so good.

Can't Higher the Silver Rod on the house ATM, but am going to try 'common mode choke' as per Ivy Mike's suggestion

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 7:07 pm

Alan Pilot wrote:
Not much qrm in the video Tony.
 Alan
Maybe the S7 - S8 is QRN I'm not clued up. (Geriatric brain in use lol!  )
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 7:31 pm

You can argue the toss whether it's QRN or QRM. Pedantically, QRN is atmospheric noise and QRM is man made interference. However when the Q code was devised I doubt there were LED lights, washing machines, thermostats etc. So to me, noise unless interference from another station is QRN. I would not argue if anyone said it was QRM however Smile


Blinking annoying though. You seem to have found peace in the trees, just sort out a better antenna, maybe a half wave or similar. Don't worry too much about how locals can hear you, it is the DX that counts. Listen to yourself on remote KiwiSDR's and compare the difference at various distances around the world. A dipole will be fine for DX.
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 7:45 pm

TrunkY wrote:
You can argue the toss whether it's QRN or QRM. Pedantically, QRN is atmospheric noise and QRM is man made interference. However when the Q code was devised I doubt there were LED lights, washing machines, thermostats etc. So to me, noise unless interference from another station is QRN. I would not argue if anyone said it was QRM however Smile


Blinking annoying though. You seem to have found peace in the trees, just sort out a better antenna, maybe a half wave or similar. Don't worry too much about how locals can hear you, it is the DX that counts. Listen to yourself on remote KiwiSDR's and compare the difference at various distances around the world. A dipole will be fine for DX.
Cheers for that Roger,
I will check out SDR's and maybe try the network on Thursday to see how it goes.
I will also try to find a willing local to take down the Silver Rod for me and place it about 3 metres in front of the trees on the 12ft pole I have.

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeSat Feb 19, 2022 8:40 pm

As Roger say's the local is no problem.
Me and a m8 who is about 5 or 6 miles away can only just have a qso but the US and Australia can hear me and him.

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 5:07 pm

Alan Pilot wrote:
ss6900 45db gain ???.
Yes Alan,

That is what it states in the owners manual. 
I know you find it hard to believe.
Very noisy on SSB 45db_g10


Last edited by Victor on Mon Feb 21, 2022 6:57 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Admin tidying up of double posted image)
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 5:08 pm

Tonyvic wrote:
NoMad wrote:
Tony,   that amount of noise seems normal to me, but then Im in a built up area full of qrm.

As suggested, getting your aerial away from housings will always help, if not higher.  

Also, remember the ss6900 has a 45db Gain ! 

How about raising your twig that extra half meter?
NoMad
S7 -8 Normal????
The result in my second video S1 -2 which is with the T2LT 20M away from the house which is great but as I mentioned transmit doesn't seem so good.

Can't Higher the Silver Rod on the house ATM, but am going to try 'common mode choke' as per Ivy Mike's suggestion
 YES !.
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 5:20 pm

Very noisy on SSB Img_2014
Tonyvic wrote:
NoMad wrote:
Tony,   that amount of noise seems normal to me, but then Im in a built up area full of qrm.

As suggested, getting your aerial away from housings will always help, if not higher.  

Also, remember the ss6900 has a 45db Gain ! 

How about raising your twig that extra half meter?
NoMad
S7 -8 Normal????
The result in my second video S1 -2 which is with the T2LT 20M away from the house which is great but as I mentioned transmit doesn't seem so good.

Can't Higher the Silver Rod on the house ATM, but am going to try 'common mode choke' as per Ivy Mike's suggestion
 Because no-one want's to believe me, well do you believe this pic, just taken on the triple 5 , Gain fully UP - NOT recieving anything except noise.
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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 7:34 pm

Hi Andy (NoMad),

The 45dB gain you mention in the manual is the amount of RF attenuation the RF control provides. When the RF gain is full the sensitivity of the radio is as specified in the 'sensitivity' box above that spec and you can turn this down by up to 45dB, i.e -45dB or about the same as moving two channels away from a transmission. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the overall 'gain' or sensitivity of the receiver so I can see why Alan (AlanPilot) questioned it.

(This is clear in the circuit diagram in that the RF gain control is a grounded resistance to alter the Emitter biasing of the RF front end receive transistor Q1.)

High 'S' levels of atmospheric noise are not unusual on any receiver especially with the RF gain at full and can be easily identified by that typical white noise or 'shhhh' sound of the cosmic background radiation. Other noises could well be other sources of interference but also equally atmospheric in origin.

A quick test would be to unscrew the PL259 connector from the back of the radio then unscrewing the grounding coupler so that only the centre section is inserted into the radio, (with no outside 'ground' contact), and see if there is a difference in perceived noise using the 'S' meter. If the noise remains the same then it's definitely atmospherics and the sensitivity of the receiver to it all. If the noise drops considerably but then pops back up when the ground is reconnected there could well be a common mode problem and the suggestions previously of chokes will help.

I've seen many people chase their proverbial tail with apparent radio interference and you'd be surprised at how common mode noise is usually the actual culprit.


Oh, and I removed the double picture posting down to a single image to tidy the forum postings up.

Just doing my best to help. Very noisy on SSB 1f44d 

I hope you got sorted Tony.


All the best,
Victor

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 8:37 pm

NoMad wrote:
Tonyvic wrote:
NoMad wrote:
Tony,   that amount of noise seems normal to me, but then Im in a built up area full of qrm.

As suggested, getting your aerial away from housings will always help, if not higher.  

Also, remember the ss6900 has a 45db Gain ! 

How about raising your twig that extra half meter?
NoMad
S7 -8 Normal????
The result in my second video S1 -2 which is with the T2LT 20M away from the house which is great but as I mentioned transmit doesn't seem so good.

Can't Higher the Silver Rod on the house ATM, but am going to try 'common mode choke' as per Ivy Mike's suggestion
 YES !.
Hi Andy (NoMad),
I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your statement "that amount of noise seems normal to me", I took it you meant 'Normal' in general but obviously meant normal for you.

Hi Victor,
Many thanks for your usual comprehensive info it is very helpful, Quote: A quick test would be to unscrew the PL259 connector from the back of the radio then unscrewing the grounding coupler so that only the centre section is inserted into the radio, (with no outside 'ground' contact), and see if there is a difference in perceived noise using the 'S' meter. If the noise remains the same then it's definitely atmospherics and the sensitivity of the receiver to it all. If the noise drops considerably but then pops back up when the ground is reconnected there could well be a common mode problem and the suggestions previously of chokes will help. Unquote


That tells me that a choke will probably not help on the Silver Rod attached to the house as there is no difference, so I will have to go with relocating it to the end of the garden.
So still not sorted! Sad

Tony

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 9:34 pm

Hi Tony. If you are able to get someone to help with moving your silver rod up and down a bit that might be worth trying. Just moving it a little bit to see what happens. I say this because I had some horrendous noise last year to similar levels as yours, same radio too, so I feel for you. A few things helped, including fitting a 1:1 current balun/choke at the feed point, but the thing that almost entirely cured it was remaking the antenna out of different wire.

Have thought about my curing quite a bit and I can't find a logical reason for a different type of wire curing unwanted noise, just doesn't make sense. What is more probable is that the location and angles the antenna was sited had changed very slightly (and it had to be very slightly as in my loft not far it can move in any direction) and that stopped it picking up so much noise.

Here's the before noise..
https://youtu.be/NwXquRSOFHs

And after..
https://youtu.be/FysuvX3XgzQ

So just moving your antenna up or down a touch might help you.

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PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 9:52 pm

Victor wrote:
Hi Andy (NoMad),

The 45dB gain you mention in the manual is the amount of RF attenuation the RF control provides. When the RF gain is full the sensitivity of the radio is as specified in the 'sensitivity' box above that spec and you can turn this down by up to 45dB, i.e -45dB or about the same as moving two channels away from a transmission. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the overall 'gain' or sensitivity of the receiver so I can see why Alan (AlanPilot) questioned it.

(This is clear in the circuit diagram in that the RF gain control is a grounded resistance to alter the Emitter biasing of the RF front end receive transistor Q1.)

High 'S' levels of atmospheric noise are not unusual on any receiver especially with the RF gain at full and can be easily identified by that typical white noise or 'shhhh' sound of the cosmic background radiation. Other noises could well be other sources of interference but also equally atmospheric in origin.

A quick test would be to unscrew the PL259 connector from the back of the radio then unscrewing the grounding coupler so that only the centre section is inserted into the radio, (with no outside 'ground' contact), and see if there is a difference in perceived noise using the 'S' meter. If the noise remains the same then it's definitely atmospherics and the sensitivity of the receiver to it all. If the noise drops considerably but then pops back up when the ground is reconnected there could well be a common mode problem and the suggestions previously of chokes will help.

I've seen many people chase their proverbial tail with apparent radio interference and you'd be surprised at how common mode noise is usually the actual culprit.


Oh, and I removed the double picture posting down to a single image to tidy the forum postings up.

Just doing my best to help. Very noisy on SSB 1f44d 

I hope you got sorted Tony.


All the best,
Victor
Always appreciate your concise replies Victor.

I have done all I can with my antenna:: It makes little difference if I disconnect the Ground side of the pl259 to socket, if anything, it goes down half a digit when I fully connect [with ground] as I have a common mode balun & choke in situ, so it is definetly atmospherics for me  [and that arcing lamp-post] .
Thanks for the doubled up pic removal Victor. Human error. My bad.


                  Glad you re-understood me there Tony.
It does ruin the whole radio experience for me, and it's like I live inside a Faraday Cage sadly.

I would recommend a common mode choke though, and hope you get your reception sorted to an acceptable level.

73' from a grumpy old man.

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Victor
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Victor


Call Sign : 26-CT-3228 Ham M7VIC
Posts : 4030
Times Thanked : 253
Join date : 2019-11-10
QTH or Location : Bedford
Equipment Used : Various

Very noisy on SSB Empty
PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitimeMon Feb 21, 2022 10:09 pm

No worries Tony and I hope you get sorted out mate.

As also suggested quite often a simple relocation of your antenna can work wonders. 

I know that SSB on 2m for me is near impossible with a vertical antenna on the house but bliss on a horizontal antenna. Unfortunately just like CB many 2m ops run verticals mostly due to mobile stations but also 2m repeaters which is fine on FM but noisy as heck on SSB. That vertical aspect is often a killer and my old CB antenna was a horizontal dipole to circumvent such problems which was great for further DX but useless for local 'vertical' comms.

Might be worth moving your antenna either as you're thinking away from the house but Neal's suggestion of a vertical placement move might move it out of the vertical interference field enough to become usable.

All the fun of radio, eh!?! Wink


No worries there too Andy mate. The double picture thing happens often and I do my best to clean them up. I hope you get sorted too with your antenna and level of noise on your radio. Very noisy on SSB 1f44d


My best to you all,
Victor

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Very noisy on SSB Empty
PostSubject: Re: Very noisy on SSB   Very noisy on SSB Icon_minitime

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