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 Anybody using DMR ?

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Alan Pilot
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Major contributor
Alan Pilot

Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
Posts : 888
Times Thanked : 24
Join date : 2019-11-19
QTH or Location : Anglesey North Wales
Equipment Used : 2x Yaesu FT-991A,,Anytone AT-D878UV "PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.

Anybody using DMR ? Empty
PostSubject: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 2:27 pm

Not a lot about DMR on here nobody using it ?.
Only just set it up here and find it interesting listening but have made some contacts.
Only got one TG programmed into my Retevis RT3s tg91 world wide.
Victor will tell you i am not a quick learner so more homework to do yet before i can QSY lol.
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A5H5ATAN1C
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4145
Posts : 85
Times Thanked : 1
Join date : 2021-06-03
QTH or Location : Chatham, Kent
Equipment Used : Includes :- AT-878UV, FT474Gx, AT-5555N, FT-818, DNT M40 (RT Factory, Manpack config), Midland Portapack, IC-211E, TS700G, TS2400, MAXCOM 16E, unbranded 40 channel Japanese 49 & 2.4Ghz transceivers (supposedly Uniden, but unlikely)
Age : 52

Anybody using DMR ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 3:36 pm

Hi Alan, you'll probably find a few hams on here using DMR networked via hotspot or using BlueDV, maybe even a few cross mode from C4FM and P25 via hotspots, but when it comes to digital simplex use of DMR, pretty much a ghost town on here I think as much as out there in ham land generally.

Around here in North Kent, I've had literally one non-test DMR simplex QSO on 70cms and that was more by chance than actively seeking, as for 2M activity - it's as lifeless as the monolith from 2001 DV wise.

Much can be said for DMR446 and PMR446 (simplex Tier 1 and relayed/simplex Tier 2), not sure about dPMR as I don't monitor for it more than once in a while.

Personally I'm happy to work and were feasible host C4FM and DMR simplex nets ham side, but seems to be no interest when there is the low hanging fruit of network relay comms - even then, on the local DMR repeaters, it's rare to hear anyone in range of the IK repeater appear on TG9 or TG801 even.  It all seems to happen, networked wise, on 235 or 1 or maybe a few groups this side of the Atlantic on Hubnet or CQ FM groups - and even then it seems SE & S England activity there is low key at best.

Mind you, given the guides to simplex DV are at best piecemeal and full of inconsistency on both ham and 446 use, I'm not entirely surprised it's as quiet as it is.

On here, I suspect you'll find that it's 446 FM mostly favoured by the main masses who use dark magic bands as LE (ham and CB and other users alike).

Mind you, if you want post apocalyptic 'quiet' that's very easily found on LPD allocation much 4M FM seems to be this side of Watford Gap.  But that could be a legacy, 4M wise, of much of the older gear nodded from PMR lo-band was ex-Gas Board AM gear.

I'm usually monitoring 9, 235 and 801 via Hotspot or the local Phoenix linked IK repeater on 70cms, with alternating 446 FM and DMR446 (monitor mode) for simplex when not busy chasing short band SSB.
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Alan Pilot
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Major contributor
Alan Pilot

Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
Posts : 888
Times Thanked : 24
Join date : 2019-11-19
QTH or Location : Anglesey North Wales
Equipment Used : 2x Yaesu FT-991A,,Anytone AT-D878UV "PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 3:59 pm

TG91 is going 24/7 world wide.
I use my own hot-spot a Pi-star hat on 70cm simplex.
I also use wiresX c4fm but not as busy as this TG91.
Many will say it's not real radio but i have had some good funny conversations on it so far.
Going to look on brandmeister and load some more talk groups when i get the hang of the programming side of this radio.
Plus i have a small power brick thingy i can plug the hot-spot into and put it in one pocket and linked to my phone in the other pocket and go anywhere with it.
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A5H5ATAN1C
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4145
Posts : 85
Times Thanked : 1
Join date : 2021-06-03
QTH or Location : Chatham, Kent
Equipment Used : Includes :- AT-878UV, FT474Gx, AT-5555N, FT-818, DNT M40 (RT Factory, Manpack config), Midland Portapack, IC-211E, TS700G, TS2400, MAXCOM 16E, unbranded 40 channel Japanese 49 & 2.4Ghz transceivers (supposedly Uniden, but unlikely)
Age : 52

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 4:19 pm

Well my only contention in the 'not proper radio' view of some is :-

It's proper radio if you use a radio to contact other stations using radio by whatever route

What's not 'proper' are people who treat their QSO's with DX distant ops over network relay as legit DX. As far as DX radio goes, it's not proper when you've a stable propagation that's there 24/7 and as easy as a phone call or VOIP or IM. That's transport of how you actually access it too.
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Alan Pilot
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Major contributor
Alan Pilot

Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
Posts : 888
Times Thanked : 24
Join date : 2019-11-19
QTH or Location : Anglesey North Wales
Equipment Used : 2x Yaesu FT-991A,,Anytone AT-D878UV "PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.

Anybody using DMR ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 4:32 pm

I do have to laugh when i hear somebody calling cqdx on the DMR network.
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A5H5ATAN1C
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4145
Posts : 85
Times Thanked : 1
Join date : 2021-06-03
QTH or Location : Chatham, Kent
Equipment Used : Includes :- AT-878UV, FT474Gx, AT-5555N, FT-818, DNT M40 (RT Factory, Manpack config), Midland Portapack, IC-211E, TS700G, TS2400, MAXCOM 16E, unbranded 40 channel Japanese 49 & 2.4Ghz transceivers (supposedly Uniden, but unlikely)
Age : 52

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 5:09 pm

I know the feeling.

When you look at it, its not like it's technically bad practice as you're requesting distance contacts, but in the DMR relay context (in the eyes of what's actually screwed up CB like practise on DMR commonly), they'd be better of doing a CQ Region call (CQ VK or suchlike) to establish distance only interest, or a simple 'CQ [TG/TG name], [YourCall] standing by' which incorporates analogue conventional practice with slight change to given it context on digital, similar to using 'CQCQ Digital, [your call] standing by' as a DV variation on common analogue simplex practice.

It's mostly, the 'conventions' such as they are (inconsistent and virtually invented in an instant) used on DV relay are much like how analogue nets have become, rather than an on-air meet/discussion session they've become more like CB. Some might argue that since we're using a commercial setup on 2M/70CM for DMR (I dodge including C4FM as it's really more a ham use in the UK with very limited P25 special interest regional usage at best) that we should use more conventions that are less international radio practise and less ham radio, but even if you look at it's main intent - comms practice on commercial LMR is very not CB as much as ham practice differs from both considerabley, but I say that whilst we use a ham allocation, we use ham radio conventions by default regards of mode, just as we'd be expected to loose the ham shackles when we venture on 11m (by legit means clearly).

But like I say, its all evolved (DMR as an ex commercial mode) on a 'make it up as we go' logic.

Codeplug programming, you'll get there and eventually be figuring out how to maximised the preset and zone slots to made it very flexible and easy.

Half of the complexity is that we're using an alien organisation of groups/zones and ID structure and kinda translating it to our use, so we get stuck with some unconditionally present commercial stuff needs to be enabled regardless etc.

At the end of the day, practice wise, r
If we apply our licensed user service conventions in a manner which fits the medium and mode, and remember to do callsign exchanges and at least make our comms within the context of the spirit of educational exploration and use firstly, there's no harm in a bit of relaxed chat.
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Alan Pilot
Major contributor
Major contributor
Alan Pilot

Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
Posts : 888
Times Thanked : 24
Join date : 2019-11-19
QTH or Location : Anglesey North Wales
Equipment Used : 2x Yaesu FT-991A,,Anytone AT-D878UV "PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 8:37 pm

Don't understand the bit you put in your last " or a simple 'CQ [TG/TG name], [YourCall] standing by'"..
You have to be in a TG you can't call for a TG.
You can qsy to another TG if you have them programmed in and want a longet contact say with a friend.
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A5H5ATAN1C
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Contributor


Call Sign : 26-CT-4145
Posts : 85
Times Thanked : 1
Join date : 2021-06-03
QTH or Location : Chatham, Kent
Equipment Used : Includes :- AT-878UV, FT474Gx, AT-5555N, FT-818, DNT M40 (RT Factory, Manpack config), Midland Portapack, IC-211E, TS700G, TS2400, MAXCOM 16E, unbranded 40 channel Japanese 49 & 2.4Ghz transceivers (supposedly Uniden, but unlikely)
Age : 52

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 9:22 pm

It works the same way as how 'CQ CQ 70, [your call] listening' where open calls you don't necessarily state a specific call, but instead reference frequency or band.

So didn't fall foul of being mistaken for broadcasting, as if the call is verbally targeted it's a group or station to station call - so instead on digital, technically, what I suggested would actually be the direct digital equiv where you state TG name or number instead of frequency or band reference.

Remember, talk groups dont actually mean anything, all a selected TG (programmed or manually selected) refers to is an ID where the ID is used for group call not station to station direct (group calling vs private). The strange convention stems from in LMR services that you use a radio telephony service so everything is 'call' based in a telephone analogy (hence the common old school term for a radio op in the military was some variation of RTO - radio telephone operator or operative which was actually quite a position of responsibility in the military at infantry/mobile infantry level).

So that's partly why when you program a code plug, you may separate groups and contacts into two defined lists, but both are actually contacts/call IDs with a flag different that determines default private or group status and determines when you send if it's handled (as received) as a P call or Group call.

So really, TG's are just a term used to describe a group contact ID not a station ID.

So when you actually make a transmission to a 'TG', it's a group ID destined transmission of many varied using same frequency but only those monitoring that TG actually hear your send on the slot defined.

So in practice the TG reference is stating you're trying to contact anyone accessing the group as defined by it's ID, identifying yourself and notifying standby, waiting, listening - referring to band/frequency is a clarity conventions carried over from analogue. So either version, referring to band/frequency as destination or the group ID/friendly ID name is interchangeable and you can mix and match for clarity and ensuring operation compliance as necessary.

It was comes in handy on display less sets if people actually explicitly state group contact ID and caller callsign or ID because display less devices don't reveal IDs or frequency. Now, and some hams also do, it's not uncommon commercially for the central point of contact who maybe monitoring many group IDs to have a monitor/promiscuous mode active so they hear all digital traffic of the system type that goes over the frequency.

On DV simplex, it can be as simple as 'CQ CQ [band or frequency or channel], [your id or call] standing' where it's clear and obvious it's an open call, add 'DX' before band/frequency reference or state a country/region identifier instead pre band/freq reference and it's clearly open with explicit scope for who, location wise, you're open calling to rather than global open.

Pretty simply stuff, but I've been around lots of systems with a wide variety of conventions and defined call procedures, but what I suggested with some tweaking pretty much does the job on any open radio system for digital - just the references differ.
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A5H5ATAN1C
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4145
Posts : 85
Times Thanked : 1
Join date : 2021-06-03
QTH or Location : Chatham, Kent
Equipment Used : Includes :- AT-878UV, FT474Gx, AT-5555N, FT-818, DNT M40 (RT Factory, Manpack config), Midland Portapack, IC-211E, TS700G, TS2400, MAXCOM 16E, unbranded 40 channel Japanese 49 & 2.4Ghz transceivers (supposedly Uniden, but unlikely)
Age : 52

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeThu Jun 10, 2021 9:28 pm

*corrects self* actually RT or RTO technically means radio telegrapher or radio telegraphy operator/operative, since it predated telephony over radio and it migrated to Telephony in common use when voice comms became normal, but technically RT as radio telegraphy/telegrapher is the proper use of RT in either context.
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Alan Pilot
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Major contributor
Alan Pilot

Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
Posts : 888
Times Thanked : 24
Join date : 2019-11-19
QTH or Location : Anglesey North Wales
Equipment Used : 2x Yaesu FT-991A,,Anytone AT-D878UV "PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.

Anybody using DMR ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeFri Jun 11, 2021 9:31 am

Sorry but i don't think you have ever used DMR.
You can't pick a qsy frequency.
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A5H5ATAN1C
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Contributor


Call Sign : 26-CT-4145
Posts : 85
Times Thanked : 1
Join date : 2021-06-03
QTH or Location : Chatham, Kent
Equipment Used : Includes :- AT-878UV, FT474Gx, AT-5555N, FT-818, DNT M40 (RT Factory, Manpack config), Midland Portapack, IC-211E, TS700G, TS2400, MAXCOM 16E, unbranded 40 channel Japanese 49 & 2.4Ghz transceivers (supposedly Uniden, but unlikely)
Age : 52

Anybody using DMR ? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeFri Jun 11, 2021 10:15 am

You're just determined to pick holes - depending on your setup, you can change to a different selected group ID aka talkgroup which is a multiplex QSY change, indicate an alternative DMR channel frequency, or both - the extents depend on the setup of your gear in use. Where T1 gear tends to use common multiplex limited settings and mostly a colour code and channels/frequency choice, T2 gear can be configured to use the alternative TS if desired, change amongst all the codeplug enabled accessible group ID's (aka talk group choices) and within different preset frequencies - it's all down to how the gear is preset/programmed/hard wired and what Tier type which limits your 'QSY' equiv options.

You accuse me of never having used DMR, well if you weren't aware of those basic differences and comparative differences and similarities, I'd say it's you who's insight and use experience is sorely lacking.

Changing of a group ID/TG aka multiplex shift in DMR or change of x-wires/FCS 'room' in C4FM terms are QSying - just not changing frequency by default.

Like I said, the way DMR is ultimately a multiplex based RT system vs that of systems that normally use frequency / channel changes to move the route of the dialogue and the disparity of explanation in many sources of how things differ between how commercial use vs ham use and how digital voice RT differs from analogue RT and non-RT usage systems is a shambles, to put it bluntly and that's at the bottom rung when non-tech operators have to demux what's best for their nontechnical use.

So it's hardly surprising there's not a lot of DMR usage, apparently, commercially in the UK commonly encountered. I swear it's part of why people just stick with 446 FM or go with dPMR for non-ham usage of 446.
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A5H5ATAN1C
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4145
Posts : 85
Times Thanked : 1
Join date : 2021-06-03
QTH or Location : Chatham, Kent
Equipment Used : Includes :- AT-878UV, FT474Gx, AT-5555N, FT-818, DNT M40 (RT Factory, Manpack config), Midland Portapack, IC-211E, TS700G, TS2400, MAXCOM 16E, unbranded 40 channel Japanese 49 & 2.4Ghz transceivers (supposedly Uniden, but unlikely)
Age : 52

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PostSubject: Re: Anybody using DMR ?   Anybody using DMR ? Icon_minitimeFri Jun 11, 2021 10:26 am

So a common open call on DMR446, vs ham use, could easily be '[your ID] monitoring channel [N]' as an indication of an open intent query to who's listening as much as a more ham style CQ call can be equally applicably fair and 'properly' usage. It all depends entirely on your scope of use and if it's used in a closed-group selective comms scenario or a public open context.
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