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INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeToday at 9:25 am by Victor

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 INVERTED V OR DIPOLE

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PostSubject: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2022 6:03 pm

Hi,

I wanted to ask you if it´s better an inverted V or DIPOLE antenna for 10 meters. I do not have enough space to put my dipole higher than it is now (ABT 1, 50 mtrs.). But, I have a vertical pole (ABT 6 - 7 mtrs.), that could perfectly hold up an inverted V.
73s,

Patrik
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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2022 7:30 pm

Hi Patrik 

I would say take a look @ a T2LT type antenna for 10m 

https://youtu.be/ChAo3VObvC8


From my experience on 10m a vertical appears to work much better than a inverted V type 

Craig CT Admin

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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeMon Apr 04, 2022 9:25 pm

Depends how Inverted the V is, if the internal angle is 120 deg then its more of a low frequency, below 10 MHz NVIS Antenna, so ideal for Local, Regional, European Comms between 160m and 40m, if you want DX on 10m to 30m then make sure the internal angle of the V is as close to 90 degrees as possible, this gives you maximum low angle radiation, any smaller an angle and you start to lose efficiency.

The trick with NVIS is to get between 1/8 and 1/4 wave AGL for the centre feed, the best for DX is as high as you can get the centre feed point as possible, so use the full height of your vertical pole.

Always cut to 5% less than the standard half wave dipole, and always cut long as you can always trim, not add.

Also you can undertake final tuning by changing the wire tension rather than cutting.

Also consider the depth of your water table, which is your ground level, in sandy areas this could be quite deep inland, near the sea or next to a river and its close to the surface.
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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeTue Apr 05, 2022 7:27 am

I have had great success with an inverted V. The feed point is in the region of 7 metres being just inside the apex of my house. The angle is about 90 degrees as Wayne suggests above.

Just a note on the length, again as Wayne says.. always cut long, then bend or trim back to tune. I have documentation that lists inverted Vs as being longer that flat dipoles unlike the more commonly quoted and sums used in on line calculators currently, a clipping can be found in THIS THREAD. However, height above ground and the "everything affects everything" antenna rule* can really vary the length a lot... my 10m element is short and my 12m element is only the length of what you'd expect a 10m one to be.

T2LT works well for me when out in open on a hill or field. I haven't made it work well at home, prob due to base only about 3m off ground and lots of houses around.


*David Casler

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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeTue Apr 05, 2022 7:41 am

Hi Patrik,

The best information I've come across with regard dipoles and inverted-V's is at the following link :-

https://vu2nsb.com/antenna/wire-antennas/inverted-v-antenna-dipole/


You'll see in his article that he addresses some of the common misconceptions such as 'free space' modelling and also the proverbial myth about cutting them shorter. It's a wealth of information and I hope it provides some help to you. INVERTED V OR DIPOLE 1f44d 


Craig above mentions his experience of vertical antennas such as the 'T2LT' and have to say I agree somewhat with him. It shouldn't matter a jot for DX whether you run vertical or horizontal but certainly does seem to matter for local and short hop contacts especially as almost everyone seems to be running verticals on 10m nowadays, (think modified or shortened CB antennas). It's a similar story on bands such as 2m where most have the proverbial 'big white sticks' slung up so you have a hard time with them if you're running a horizontal setup, (which is infinitely more quiet on SSB!)

I'm currently searching 10m antenna options myself and surprised of how well many do with a simple shortened half wave GPA CB type of affair. If it wasn't for the fact that I've never bought an antenna yet preferring to build them I might be tempted at such a simple setup. Wink


I wish you well,
Victor

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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeTue Apr 05, 2022 7:45 am

Ah, nice one there Neal. INVERTED V OR DIPOLE 1f44d 

Just as I posted I saw yours and agree completely with the longer lengths to inverted-V's discovering that myself on my last antenna setup.
Here's hoping I get a new antenna up and catch up with you on the 10m challenge mate. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2022 5:41 pm

An inverted V is a dipole, just one that has the legs brought down at an angle to make the pattern more omnidirectional than a horizontal dipole. Where we are in the UK though if you use a dipole and point it north-south you'd only really be losing Greenland/Artic and Antartic anyway. 

Whichever you choose ideally you want the feedpoint 16ft-32ft high. Don't make the internal angle any smaller than 90 degrees, in other words don't have the legs coming down any steeper than 45 degrees.

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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2022 8:14 pm

Hi everyone,

thanks for the replies. I appreciate them.

I know the two types of antennas very well, I just wanted to compare the two, and, I think i am gonna choose the inverted V because:
1. It is going to be higher,
2. I am gonna receive horizontally polarized and vertically  polarized signals at the same time, without changing the antenna.

Thanks for the help! Smile 

73s

Patrik 327CT002

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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeWed Apr 06, 2022 8:17 pm

And for Sydthecat,

I use a T2LT for 11 meters, I do not want to use more coax for another T2LT, but I agree, It behaves very good.

73s again,

Patrik

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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeThu Apr 07, 2022 9:28 pm

Hey Patrik, just a thought, if you are going to play with an inverted V because it is going to be higher, and if your pole is strong enough, you could try making an upright V and gain a tiny bit more height. I made one out of very cheap items HERE and although only used a few times it does work.

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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeSat Apr 09, 2022 11:23 am

Hi SangueG,

thanks for this tought!

Deffenetly a bit more gain.

I read the forum and I saw the pictures. Is not this just a Delta Loop?

73s

Patrik
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PostSubject: Re: INVERTED V OR DIPOLE   INVERTED V OR DIPOLE Icon_minitimeSat Apr 09, 2022 3:02 pm

It's a dipole, a v dipole but ends bent up not down (no wire between top two leg ends) But.. if a little longer wooden canes were used with the PVC pipe frame it could hold the wire for a bottom fed delta loop Smile

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