new era and different rules ....

so back in the 70s when i was living in a house i had a few different antennas and also in the 80s .. i had them all ziggy 4s, beams with rotators, gp 27s and a few more it was great ... 

in the 90s i was living in a block of flats and i am still here today .. i asked for permission to put an antenna on the roof and they said yes .. so i went a bit overboard and put up an antron 99 on top of a 16 foot pole and this was on the top of a 14 floor block of flats ...

what a station i was .. anyhow now fast forward to today and i want to come back on but i know when i ask for permission to put up an antenna they will tell me to do one just on the health and safety aspect alone ..

so i have been here for 28 years and i know all the concierge staff and i have already asked them to turn a blind eye about the antenna and the answer was ok no probs as there is never anyone on the roof anyway ..

here's my problem .. i need a small antenna on a small pole so as it's not sticking out like a sore thumb ..
i know all about the standard sized antennas but they are a no go big time but i know nothing about any small antennas ..

is there such a thing as a good small antenna ? it will be on a small pole above everything with about 60 foot of coax by the time it gets to my flat ... any input would be very much appreciated guys .. thanks ...

Hello BASS 666,If you take a look at the Knights website they sell a few small sized antenna’s.Your see the lengths and full spec etc etc.
Hope that was of some help.
Cheers Tom.
26CT4029

Chickenfoot@1987 wrote:

Hello BASS 666,If you take a look at the Knights website they sell a few small sized antenna’s.Your see the lengths and full spec etc etc.
Hope that was of some help.
Cheers Tom.
26CT4029

yes mate i have been looking for days now .... i have seen an antenna called the Thunderpole Boomerang and it seems to get good reviews and is small .. more homework for a few days needed i think ..
i'm surprised no one on here is using a smallish antenna or has came back to me about the small stuff ...

Hi Gary,

You can do wonders with small CB antennas.......usually when mounted to a vehicle or running a mobile setup.

With a car the vehicle will provide a good ground plane for the antenna but hard to replicate with anything else. Bits of wire, poky-out-bits, sheets of metal, aluminium foil or even the ubiquitous metal biscuit tin just isn't the same.

With a car you can drive up to the local hill and gain a difference in height you won't manage in even a taller building unless it is also situated on top of a hill. The higher up and clear from obstructions you get, the further your transmissions will go but you'd need a heck of a lot of scaffold poles to replicate the height of a hill.

If you take a look at the topographic map for Belfast (your given QTH) linked below you'll see what I mean :-

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/0r/Belfast/

Most of Belfast is low down in the blue areas so mostly below 30m above sea level, whereas areas such as Black Hill/Black Mountain are another 300 to 400m higher. Sat atop that and your signals will fire in all directions but sat beneath it and it becomes a very big obstruction to your signals.

On the flip side in a car/mobile setup you can get nearer the coast and although lower down there are less obstructions and obviously no hills out to sea so fire radio signals well from there too. Either location would provide good 'skip' activity for CB enthusiasts.

With a car or mobile setup you're usually using much shorter lengths of coax between your radio and the antenna which also helps a lot as the losses would be minimal. As the coax gets longer so does the losses and with 60 foot of coax depending on what type you use those losses add up so you could squirt the legal 4 watts of radio power up there and be lucky if 3 watts dribbles out the other end or worse. Those losses are also on receive as well as transmit so firing more power out could well make you an 'alligator' station being 'all mouth and no ears' and most of us know that receive 'pre-amps' are next to useless so won't help there.

A good online calculator for coax losses is linked below :-

https://www.qsl.net/co8tw/Coax_Calculator.htm


Not helping you much as regards a home base setup I know but this is where small antennas do work.

Sure, some have had maybe 'skip' contacts when conditions are ripe from such small antennas at home but when the Sporadic 'E' is flowing a proverbial wet piece of string hung out of a window can bag you contacts. Imagine what a 'decent' setup would capture?

Back in the 'day' an old DV27 on a biscuit tin or other such would work as your "DX" was usually a mate the next street over or maybe even that kid you knew from school on the other side of the 'estate'. You could get 'amazing' contacts when everyone had a CB radio in such small areas but with CB'ers often being much further apart nowadays a bit more work is required.

If you have no other choice then best take the 'never say never' approach doing what you can to get yourself on air. You never know, there may be several operators in your area running similar setups and be glad to find another contact. If you do find them, then always 'agree to disagree' with opinions and views....on air arguments always leave the airwaves devoid of activity eventually.


In my own area CB activity is lacklustre and due to disability as well as 'village life' I also could not strap up honking big antennas atop the roof. So I took my ticket and got a 'Ham' licence so my bits of wire strung in the loft space and access to other bands/frequencies has given me all the radio fun I could imagine.


I wish you well and hope you find a solution that fits your needs.

All the best,
Victor

Hi Gary. Is it a flat roof or apexed? If flat you could use a mobile antenna and stretch out a few wires flat on the roof that no ones will ever see unless they go up there. If apex type and you're mounting on the side wall, if it was me I would probably make something up similar to that Boomerang but replace the whip with a 9' steel 1/4 wave which is longer, but very thin and hardly be seen up high, or at least swap out the whip for a centre or top loaded radiating element.

thanks guys ... there is a wheelhouse on top of my flats and i can get slightly up above it clear of all obstacles so all in it would be about 120/130 feet up ...

where i live i can see Scotland with the naked eye on a clear day, there is nothing in front of me i am near the coast of Belfast lough ..  the last time i was on with the Antron on the roof i was talking to guys in Scotland on normal FM and all over N,Ireland with no bother ..

i sent for all my gear last night and will be on the roof today doing some homework as to what i need to get the antenna up in the next few days .. 

i am buying the superstar 6900n a good psu and the thunderpole boomerang ..
i know where i live i am in a dip but out the front of me is clear to the UK mainland and Scotland ...

Some stunning views there Gary and a nice bit of height from where you are too.

I'd think you'd do rather well even with a compromised setup.

You could always string up a horizontal dipole to catch some SSB action on the long haul skip....useless for local copies but great for DX!

Best of luck with everything and enjoy your 6900.

73
Victor

SangueG wrote:

Hi Gary. Is it a flat roof or apexed? If flat you could use a mobile antenna and stretch out a few wires flat on the roof that no ones will ever see unless they go up there. If apex type and you're mounting on the side wall, if it was me I would probably make something up similar to that Boomerang but replace the whip with a 9' steel 1/4 wave which is longer, but very thin and hardly be seen up high, or at least swap out the whip for a centre or top loaded radiating element.

thanks .. can you give me more info on what you mean by changing out parts of the antenna ? 
could i change the whip ( top part ) for something else like you say and what would that be like to SWR ?

what is the radiating element you talk about ? some more info would be good as i have been away from the hobby and i have to refresh my mind as to what it all means ....

Victor wrote:

Some stunning views there Gary and a nice bit of height from where you are too.

I'd think you'd do rather well even with a compromised setup.

You could always string up a horizontal dipole to catch some SSB action on the long haul skip....useless for local copies but great for DX!

Best of luck with everything and enjoy your 6900.

73
Victor

thanks Victor for the help you have gave me it's appreciated mate ..
i will start off with what i can get and then see if i can make it better in the future i guess ..

Gary what a view,I think with that height and open space your have no problems making fantastic QSO’s no matter what antenna you decide to purchase.I’m in south London and as you can guess it’s a concrete jungle,Fortunately we live on high ground and with the tall antenna up nice and high (20 metres) I get heard and receive no problems as I can hear a fart at 5000 miles..lol
Seriously a good option would be a mobile antenna as the other CT members suggested as its discrete.I use a 9 foot 1/4 wave tank whip while mobile and on high ground with the right propagation conditions your be surprised just how far you can get.The lads at work couldn’t believe the person I was talking to was actually in New Jersey.
Hope everything works out great with your decisions on antenna choice etc etc and we’re all eager to hear how it’s working and what country you spoke to.
All the Best Tom.
26CT4029

BASS 666 wrote:

SangueG wrote:

Hi Gary. Is it a flat roof or apexed? If flat you could use a mobile antenna and stretch out a few wires flat on the roof that no ones will ever see unless they go up there. If apex type and you're mounting on the side wall, if it was me I would probably make something up similar to that Boomerang but replace the whip with a 9' steel 1/4 wave which is longer, but very thin and hardly be seen up high, or at least swap out the whip for a centre or top loaded radiating element.

thanks .. can you give me more info on what you mean by changing out parts of the antenna ? 
could i change the whip ( top part ) for something else like you say and what would that be like to SWR ?

what is the radiating element you talk about ? some more info would be good as i have been away from the hobby and i have to refresh my mind as to what it all means ....

Yes, no problem. Firstly want to say that I have never used that Boomerang so can only theorize how well it works. There is an unboxing video of one on youtube CLICK HERE that will show you all the parts that need assembling. Both the top part (the radiating element.. though some might say the whole thing radiates as is just a shortened dipole) and the bottom groundplane part are just mobile whips with 3/8" threads. So by swapping out parts I mean unscrew the top whip and and screw in a 1/4 steel whip or a better mobile antenna.

...the top whip the Boomerang comes with looks to be mostly loading coil, hardly any straight whip/stinger at the top, personally I don't think it will be that great. It shouldn't be overly difficult to SWR another mobile antenna on it. Maybe start off with the Boomerang as standard and mod it with another whip later on if it's not doing good for you.

SangueG wrote:

BASS 666 wrote:

SangueG wrote:

Hi Gary. Is it a flat roof or apexed? If flat you could use a mobile antenna and stretch out a few wires flat on the roof that no ones will ever see unless they go up there. If apex type and you're mounting on the side wall, if it was me I would probably make something up similar to that Boomerang but replace the whip with a 9' steel 1/4 wave which is longer, but very thin and hardly be seen up high, or at least swap out the whip for a centre or top loaded radiating element.

thanks .. can you give me more info on what you mean by changing out parts of the antenna ? 
could i change the whip ( top part ) for something else like you say and what would that be like to SWR ?

what is the radiating element you talk about ? some more info would be good as i have been away from the hobby and i have to refresh my mind as to what it all means ....

Yes, no problem. Firstly want to say that I have never used that Boomerang so can only theorize how well it works. There is an unboxing video of one on youtube  that will show you all the parts that need assembling. Both the top part (the radiating element.. though some might say the whole thing radiates as is just a shortened dipole) and the bottom groundplane part are just mobile whips with 3/8" threads. So by swapping out parts I mean unscrew the top whip and and screw in a 1/4 steel whip or a better mobile antenna.

...the top whip the Boomerang comes with looks to be mostly loading coil, hardly any straight whip/stinger at the top, personally I don't think it will be that great. It shouldn't be overly difficult to SWR another mobile antenna on it. Maybe start off with the Boomerang as standard and mod it with another whip later on if it's not doing good for you.

ok mate thanks ... i did look at the vids on youtube and read some reviews and it seems to be ok ..
yeah i know what you mean by changing out some of the parts now and it seems plausible that it would be a better job ..

i will put it up as it is and then come back to you for more info if needed  .... thank you again ..

I recently watched a video on Waters and Stanton's Youtube that has an idea for improving grounds on a magmount which would work. Meat and bones starts around 2 minutes.

https://youtu.be/T2GVq0msdBs


You could do this with a mobile antenna and with pretty much any type of mount. I'd use a Sirio Performer 5000 for the bandwidth, but use four radials instead of one, making them around 9ft long and lay them out in a cross pattern so one north, south, east and west for example. Flattened RG213 braid works well.

BASS 666 wrote:

SangueG wrote:

BASS 666 wrote:

SangueG wrote:

Hi Gary. Is it a flat roof or apexed? If flat you could use a mobile antenna and stretch out a few wires flat on the roof that no ones will ever see unless they go up there. If apex type and you're mounting on the side wall, if it was me I would probably make something up similar to that Boomerang but replace the whip with a 9' steel 1/4 wave which is longer, but very thin and hardly be seen up high, or at least swap out the whip for a centre or top loaded radiating element.

thanks .. can you give me more info on what you mean by changing out parts of the antenna ? 
could i change the whip ( top part ) for something else like you say and what would that be like to SWR ?

what is the radiating element you talk about ? some more info would be good as i have been away from the hobby and i have to refresh my mind as to what it all means ....

Yes, no problem. Firstly want to say that I have never used that Boomerang so can only theorize how well it works. There is an unboxing video of one on youtube  that will show you all the parts that need assembling. Both the top part (the radiating element.. though some might say the whole thing radiates as is just a shortened dipole) and the bottom groundplane part are just mobile whips with 3/8" threads. So by swapping out parts I mean unscrew the top whip and and screw in a 1/4 steel whip or a better mobile antenna.

...the top whip the Boomerang comes with looks to be mostly loading coil, hardly any straight whip/stinger at the top, personally I don't think it will be that great. It shouldn't be overly difficult to SWR another mobile antenna on it. Maybe start off with the Boomerang as standard and mod it with another whip later on if it's not doing good for you.

ok mate thanks ... i did look at the vids on youtube and read some reviews and it seems to be ok ..
yeah i know what you mean by changing out some of the parts now and it seems plausible that it would be a better job ..

i will put it up as it is and then come back to you for more info if needed  .... thank you again ..

This is a brilliant discussion chap!!  You've got an amazing viewpoint from where you are.  Just a thought, but I'd also be inclined to gradually build up from a smaller antenna to a larger one each year because you already have the permission, albeit 25 years ago!?!

Thanks again,

Simon.

I would suggest that even a 5/8 Silver Road at 20ft tall would be difficult to see 14 floors/130ft up, plus the higher up it is the less visible, and unless you tell everyone its up there, or make a meal of erecting it, no-one will even notice it.

However, I'd use low loss cable for long runs but this could be a compromise if its running down the side of the building, as you'd not want it so visible from the ground, or flapping on the side of the building in the wind.

Can you see the Silver Rod in this picture?  It's not on the Tower...



Its only 30ft away and mounted 6ft off the ground...

You can imagine most people won't notice its even there when its 300ft away (so its at least line-of-sight on the roof) and 130ft off the ground.

I'd not even worry about it, but would suggest RG8X is less flappy and will have an improvement (although small) over the thinner RG58 over 60ft, plus cheaper and weighs less and less visible than RG213.

60ft Coax, 1.5:1 SWR 27.555MHz 12W SSB

RG174 ~2.7dB loss ~6.5W Out
RG58 ~1.2dB loss ~9.0W Out
RG8X ~1.0dB loss ~9.5W Out
RG213 ~0.6dB loss ~10.2W Out

As discussed elsewhere on here, the losses, unless over much longer runs is not that much of an issue.

Thought about a wire dipole strung out, it will be low profile if you have two objects to string it to. Obviously not seeing the roof area I can't really think of much better to capture. The issue with mobile antennas you need them fairly high to get a opposing ground plane.

Cheers

Andy2490 wrote:

Thought about a wire dipole strung out, it will be low profile if you have two objects to string it to. Obviously not seeing the roof area I can't really think of much better to capture. The issue with mobile antennas you need them fairly high to get a opposing ground plane.

Cheers

Yup, even less visible, here's a calculator for Dipoles/Inverted-Vs, for the latter you want 45 degree (5%) for a combination of DX and line of sight communications.

https://www.hamuniverse.com/dipivcal.html

thanks guys .. yeah the big antenna is the perfect solution and i could prob put one up and not make a fuss of it but the problem is there are four blocks of flats all beside each other and it will be seen by the block beside me and trust me when i say it will get reported ...

i'm leaning toward buying a different whip for the boomerang cause i've seen a 9 foot 1/4 wave whip that seems very popular ...
my stuff arrives early next week i have only to order the coax so i have a bit of thinking time left ..

the coax will be fastened to the lightning conductor nearly the whole way down to me as i know all the residents and they will let me in to fasten it with zip ties ... not a good idea to have it fastened onto the conductor but i can't remember the last time we had lightning and even if we did i would disconnect it and hope for the best   ... i will keep you informed of how i'm getting on guys and thank you again ....

BASS 666 wrote:

thanks guys .. yeah the big antenna is the perfect solution and i could prob put one up and not make a fuss of it but the problem is there are four blocks of flats all beside each other and it will be seen by the block beside me and trust me when i say it will get reported ...

i'm leaning toward buying a different whip for the boomerang cause i've seen a 9 foot 1/4 wave whip that seems very popular ...
my stuff arrives early next week i have only to order the coax so i have a bit of thinking time left ..

the coax will be fastened to the lightning conductor nearly the whole way down to me as i know all the residents and they will let me in to fasten it with zip ties ... not a good idea to have it fastened onto the conductor but i can't remember the last time we had lightning and even if we did i would disconnect it and hope for the best   ... i will keep you informed of how i'm getting on guys and thank you again ....

Well, a 45 degree wire Inverted-V would be ~4ft tall, assuming you won't have anyone up there whilst you're transmitting, most Inverted-V's are guyed so that insulated guy ropes rise above 6 to 8ft, keeping transmitting wires out of reach of idiots.

Belt & Braces safety would mean the centre of the V would be 10 to 12ft above the roof, but then if you're using a 9ft mobile whip and took the same approach, the top of the antenna would be 15 to 17ft above the roof.

So its a matter of choice and compromise, and going with your gut feeling is most likely the way forward if you're aware of who and why people might report your efforts.

Wireless wrote:

BASS 666 wrote:

thanks guys .. yeah the big antenna is the perfect solution and i could prob put one up and not make a fuss of it but the problem is there are four blocks of flats all beside each other and it will be seen by the block beside me and trust me when i say it will get reported ...

i'm leaning toward buying a different whip for the boomerang cause i've seen a 9 foot 1/4 wave whip that seems very popular ...
my stuff arrives early next week i have only to order the coax so i have a bit of thinking time left ..

the coax will be fastened to the lightning conductor nearly the whole way down to me as i know all the residents and they will let me in to fasten it with zip ties ... not a good idea to have it fastened onto the conductor but i can't remember the last time we had lightning and even if we did i would disconnect it and hope for the best   ... i will keep you informed of how i'm getting on guys and thank you again ....

Well, a 45 degree wire Inverted-V would be ~4ft tall, assuming you won't have anyone up there whilst you're transmitting, most Inverted-V's are guyed so that insulated guy ropes rise above 6 to 8ft, keeping transmitting wires out of reach of idiots.

Belt & Braces safety would mean the centre of the V would be 10 to 12ft above the roof, but then if you're using a 9ft mobile whip and took the same approach, the top of the antenna would be 15 to 17ft above the roof.

So its a matter of choice and compromise, and going with your gut feeling is most likely the way forward if you're aware of who and why people might report your efforts.

if only i was able to choose what to do would be good .. i think i'm stuck with doing the bare minimum and going with the set up i have spoke about .. god knows who will be up there in the future and i know a lot about some of the clowns who have worked at these flats in the last lot of years ..

do you think replacing the standard whip on the boomerang with a 9ft 1/4 wave whip will be better ?

I wouldn't over think it Gary mate or you'll never get anywhere.

Bung up your Boomerang and see how it works out then go from there with experiments replacing whips etc.

I'd presume your flat block is a concrete structure (?) so there will be a lot of steel reinforcing rods that will affect your effective groundplane somewhat. (Which would also screw up an inverted V configuration anyway, so forget 5% shortening and omnidirectionality.) It can all be way too much nonsense to be thinking about.


Get that twig up, get on air, enjoy yourself then you can play around later.

73,
Victor

Victor wrote:

I wouldn't over think it Gary mate or you'll never get anywhere.

Bung up your Boomerang and see how it works out then go from there with experiments replacing whips etc.

I'd presume your flat block is a concrete structure (?) so there will be a lot of steel reinforcing rods that will affect your effective groundplane somewhat. (Which would also screw up an inverted V configuration anyway, so forget 5% shortening and omnidirectionality.) It can all be way too much nonsense to be thinking about.


Get that twig up, get on air, enjoy yourself then you can play around later.

73,
Victor

will do mate ... looking forward to seeing how it goes .. i remember having the antron up there and i was hearing stations from quite a few places on normal fm i didn't do a lot of dx,ing .. so i will go with the flow and see how the boomerang behaves ... thanks ..

Good luck with all Gary and I hope you get some great contacts.

You never know, I've had some good short hop skip into Ireland in the past even on FM modes so might  bump into you on air one day.  

Either way, the Solar cycle is ramping up, summer skip season is just around the corner and you wouldn't want to miss all the fun 'cos you were deciding on an antenna.

Its been my experience that all small aerials are crap total waste of time

I agree go big or go home