Do I have the correct aerial?

I live on a hill in Cambs but I am surrounded by trees.  I have a silver rod (Thunderpole) and I am using an Anytone AT-5555 plus.  The base of the rod is about 8 ft off the ground mounted on the side of my shed.  Is this the correct aerial for my situation?  I don't have room for any "Ham" type aerials but wondered, for instance whether a 5/8 wave with ground plane bits would improve things.  Thanks, David. CT5122

The antenna at 8ft off the ground is a little low. Height is might as they say, if you can - get it onto a longer pole and get it up at least just above the guttering of your house or as high as you can.

I guess I could get another extension pole. Maybe I could add 3M. The house is 50M away so no gutter to clear!

Any piece of wire that is matched your TX is an antenna. Literally random pieces of wire will radiate RF and with extremely good conditions and the right band, some easier than others, you will have  difficulty not making contacts.

A 1/2 wave vertical can be a very good antenna indeed which is what you have. Unbeatable by any other single element vertical in fact, when set up right.

It's rather low as has been suggested. You will make some contacts for sure when conditions on 11m or 10m are good.

However, not every contact is on a clear frequency with just you on it. Assuming the CB band there is great 'interference' from competing stations so without a good antenna which is well set up and some power, contacts will become more limited.

There will always be very occasional and optimal situations where almost miraculous contacts will be made, for this a 1/4 wave on the ground with 1-2 radials can work ok even on 10/11m.

However 99pct of the time there will less good conditions and competition for DX a better antenna system is required to make contacts. Without it you can very easily be lost in the noise.

This is why it is a good plan to have a good antenna well set up which will work best for you in ALL conditions.

DX is basically conditions, that is the bottom line, the crux of it. No special antenna or massive power (which does not help RX a single jot) can overcome no charge/path on the ionosphere for the band / paths of interest.

It's all luck. Sad but true, what band, what day, what time of day, whose on ? Is 75pct of the job of dx.

However having a high performance antenna will always stand you in good stead for any of the above variables.

A 1/2 end fed dipole which is what your silver rod is in ham speak, starts to work well at about 1/2 wavelength above ground. So set it up at about 5.5meters or 18feet and you should start to find your antenna is making more contacts more regularly.

If you are serious about DX put the very best that you can up, that way you maximize your chances every time you are on.

No point using 5/8 waves without inconvenient and large elevated radials. Without at least 4 x 1/4 wave radials just stick with the 1/2 wave, it will be as good.

Thing with DX is that it makes judging performance very difficult. Someone with an identical setup 15miles away might be doing DX at S7 both ways and for you it's an S3 contact both ways, just the way the RF is coming down and going up which is 100pct chance. To stretch the analogy they might be doing an S1 both ways and you cannot even hear the distant station.  

That is not to say there are not better performing vertical set ups being used on the various bands. So by putting up the best you can you maximize the possibilities at your own location.

1/2 wave for 11m is perfectly adequate for global DX when 5.5m and above.

To go a little more technical 90pct of incoming and outgoing DX outside of the continent of Europe will be coming in and out of your antenna at between 4 and 9 degrees for 11m, so the more you optimize your antenna for a 5 degree take off.. i.e. between 7-10m height the more dx you will potentially make.

Good luck, the next 3 years are the right years to make max contacts.

FreqFreak wrote:

Any piece of wire that is matched your TX is an antenna. Literally random pieces of wire will radiate RF and with extremely good conditions and the right band, some easier than others, you will have  difficulty not making contacts.

A 1/2 wave vertical can be a very good antenna indeed which is what you have. Unbeatable by any other single element vertical in fact, when set up right.

It's rather low as has been suggested. You will make some contacts for sure when conditions on 11m or 10m are good.

However, not every contact is on a clear frequency with just you on it. Assuming the CB band there is great 'interference' from competing stations so without a good antenna which is well set up and some power, contacts will become more limited.

There will always be very occasional and optimal situations where almost miraculous contacts will be made, for this a 1/4 wave on the ground with 1-2 radials can work ok even on 10/11m.

However 99pct of the time there will less good conditions and competition for DX a better antenna system is required to make contacts. Without it you can very easily be lost in the noise.

This is why it is a good plan to have a good antenna well set up which will work best for you in ALL conditions.

DX is basically conditions, that is the bottom line, the crux of it. No special antenna or massive power (which does not help RX a single jot) can overcome no charge/path on the ionosphere for the band / paths of interest.

It's all luck. Sad but true, what band, what day, what time of day, whose on ? Is 75pct of the job of dx.

However having a high performance antenna will always stand you in good stead for any of the above variables.

A 1/2 end fed dipole which is what your silver rod is in ham speak, starts to work well at about 1/2 wavelength above ground. So set it up at about 5.5meters or 18feet and you should start to find your antenna is making more contacts more regularly.

If you are serious about DX put the very best that you can up, that way you maximize your chances every time you are on.

No point using 5/8 waves without inconvenient and large elevated radials. Without at least 4 x 1/4 wave radials just stick with the 1/2 wave, it will be as good.

Thing with DX is that it makes judging performance very difficult. Someone with an identical setup 15miles away might be doing DX at S7 both ways and for you it's an S3 contact both ways, just the way the RF is coming down and going up which is 100pct chance. To stretch the analogy they might be doing an S1 both ways and you cannot even hear the distant station.  

That is not to say there are not better performing vertical set ups being used on the various bands. So by putting up the best you can you maximize the possibilities at your own location.

1/2 wave for 11m is perfectly adequate for global DX when 5.5m and above.

To go a little more technical 90pct of incoming and outgoing DX outside of the continent of Europe will be coming in and out of your antenna at between 4 and 9 degrees for 11m, so the more you optimize your antenna for a 5 degree take off.. i.e. between 7-10m height the more dx you will potentially make.

Good luck, the next 3 years are the right years to make max contacts.

Many thanks for your comprehensive reply. Confidence is building!!  Just one question, when you talk about the distance from the ground, are you referring to the base of the aerial or the tip? Given what I have said, would adding three metres to the pole make a difference?


Thanks, David.  CT5122

FreqFreak wrote:

Thing with DX is that it makes judging performance very difficult. Someone with an identical setup 15miles away might be doing DX at S7 both ways and for you it's an S3 contact both ways, just the way the RF is coming down and going up which is 100pct chance. To stretch the analogy they might be doing an S1 both ways and you cannot even hear the distant station. 

Lately i am using a sirio boomerang, about 2 weeks ago at UK Band ch34 was 2 stations both at west London not far each other (as they told me) & can hear them at Greece for some good time ... propagation allowed me to say quick Hello for 3 days ...
the first day will hear one clear & the other one just about
the second day will hear the other clear & the one spoke the first day just about
the 3rd day will hear both
now for about a week the very little time had free checked the channel, nothing

Yes as indicated by my post adding 3m will be beneficial.

Also ensure you add an ugly balun, someone on here will fill you in as I cannot recall dimensions and turn numbers. In essence just some turns of coax on a tube at the point where you coax goes into the antenna, this can be quite important as if you do not have one your coax may radiate (forming part of the antenna) and it will destroy the radiation pattern of your antenna (which is meant to be a 1/2 wave long) reducing low angle radiation and therefore probably reducing intercontinental DX.

Sometimes you get lucky and coax does not radiate and SWR is also ok but better to cut that ambiguity out for a little effort and a little more coax.

The higher your antenna the less negative influence from the ground on the pattern and it lowers the radiation angle. Also the better it will clear surrounding objects.

3m extra will make a worthwhile difference.

babis3g, that's how it goes, our DX is solely at the mercy of the atmosphere above. Beyond that you can do no more than put the best antenna system up that is possible in your situation. The more you are on the radio the more chances you get to make DX. It's a number games, more hours = more DX.

Of course you can tip things in your favour using different operating hours to your advantage, different times of day, develop a DX technique that works for you. Being heard can become critical on CB free band. For DX few serious DXers are suing less than 60W-100W, that's just a fact. You must do what others do in order to at least be equal, but getting your antenna spot on the the very first job on the road to DX success as it determines TX and RX, power is just TX.

And as the maxim goes, cannot hear them cannot work them.

I've trawled the net for a balun but cannot find any reference to adding a balun to a silver rod. All the units I have seen have a coax input but only two wing nut connections in the output side. In this case would the output be fed back into a plug to connect to the aerial?

This is for simple ugly balun...not every balun
my guess the silver rod is exactly the same like pic below (5/8 at demo pic) should be the same ...
the cable from the transmitter goes up & just under the antenna the same cable few turns depending, more turns the shorter balun, less turns the larger balun & the male pl-259 connect to antenna female pl-259 ... for the turns & diameter need to see ugly baun calculator

some using pvc pipe, here one, smaller diameter more turns, need to seee ugly baloon calculator

babis3g wrote:

This is for simple ugly balun...not every balun
my guess the silver rod is exactly the same like pic below (5/8 at demo pic) should be the same ...
the cable from the transmitter goes up & just under the antenna the same cable few turns depending, more turns the shorter balun, less turns the larger balun & the male pl-259 connect to antenna female pl-259 ... for the turns & diameter need to see ugly baun calculator

some using pvc pipe, here one, smaller diameter more turns, need to seee ugly baloon calculator

Now I get it!!  Thanks again.

FreqFreak wrote:

babis3g, that's how it goes, our DX is solely at the mercy of the atmosphere above. Beyond that you can do no more than put the best antenna system up that is possible in your situation. The more you are on the radio the more chances you get to make DX. It's a number games, more hours = more DX.

Of course you can tip things in your favour using different operating hours to your advantage, different times of day, develop a DX technique that works for you. Being heard can become critical on CB free band. For DX few serious DXers are suing less than 60W-100W, that's just a fact. You must do what others do in order to at least be equal, but getting your antenna spot on the the very first job on the road to DX success as it determines TX and RX, power is just TX.

And as the maxim goes, cannot hear them cannot work them.

Here what  i have discovered that works in some cases ... 2 people chatting (from far) i call & call nothing because they are replying immediately or both having strong signal between them or having RFG, SG Gain higher etc) but IF at some point one of them the signal starts fading & coming back, at this point i  press the TX & call, the one is not transmitting will hear me... then will reply to his other mate that some one dxing (even he was TXing as well because he was already talking) ... it works in some cases ... have Not explained what is happening to atmosphere at this point

pdes wrote:

Now I get it!!  Thanks again.

Forgot to say if you will not use pvc pipe (is better to use) by just doing turns, the turns of the cable must be parallel in order & one end not touching the other end of the cable

Some people build choke-baluns, without a plastic coil-form, by
scramble-winding the coax into a coil and taping it together. The
problem with scramble-winding is that the first and last turns of the coax
may touch each other  which create issues and also cable turns needs to be parallel at each turn

Good updates chaps. This chart shows turns number and pipe diameter. I used a piece of white drain pipe, easy to buy, or maybe even find a small piece or get down DIY shop. You will find once the ugly balun is added and you raise height you may need to tweak length of antenna to tweak SWR again as this will change a little if CMC was on the coax when you tuned it and the feed point height from ground has a small effect also.

So 5 turns RG58 or RG213 on 4.25inch pipe that should reduce CMC on coax and stop the coax acting radiating which will preserve the pattern that height above ground is permitting.

Good point about keeping the turns parallel babis3g, a glue gun is helpful keeping the coax in place. Drain pipe is of course air cored.



Webpage :

http://karinya.net/g3txq/chokes/

babis3g wrote:

FreqFreak wrote:

babis3g, that's how it goes, our DX is solely at the mercy of the atmosphere above. Beyond that you can do no more than put the best antenna system up that is possible in your situation. The more you are on the radio the more chances you get to make DX. It's a number games, more hours = more DX.

Of course you can tip things in your favour using different operating hours to your advantage, different times of day, develop a DX technique that works for you. Being heard can become critical on CB free band. For DX few serious DXers are suing less than 60W-100W, that's just a fact. You must do what others do in order to at least be equal, but getting your antenna spot on the the very first job on the road to DX success as it determines TX and RX, power is just TX.

And as the maxim goes, cannot hear them cannot work them.

Here what  i have discovered that works in some cases ... 2 people chatting (from far) i call & call nothing because they are replying immediately or both having strong signal between them or having RFG, SG Gain higher etc) but IF at some point one of them the signal starts fading & coming back, at this point i  press the TX & call, the one is not transmitting will hear me... then will reply to his other mate that some one dxing (even he was TXing as well because he was already talking) ... it works in some cases ... have Not explained what is happening to atmosphere at this point

The path/s is shifting. Trying to understand what is happening is potentially very complex. One of the persons in QSO starts to have an unstable path to yourself (fading) which may also be having an impact on their relative signal strengths to each other just your path is still open or in fact improving so you get heard.

There are MANY variables on one path never mind 3 as your situation, and they change on every possible path all the time, that becomes open. I run a super low angle set up, which is very efficient at very low angles and I am often heard as one of very few heard in USA from Europe every so often.

Though that takes many variables in itself not least someone just happening to hear you and be on the radio themselves. Possibly also having a very capable set up at low angles and of course a path that opens using those very low angles. Having a super low angle set up can increase the maximum usable frequency slightly as the ionosphere will potentially support a contact on say 10m band at 3 degree where it would not at 8 degrees. So if a 3 degree path opens boom you are the only one making that contact cause you are putting out enough poke to be heard assuming the RX station is doing the same and in reciprocal.

Also never feel as a lesser station running a wire ! Beams have potential downside, like pointing the wrong way for starters. Then you get in quick as long as you have high performance wire antennas (count silver rods etc as wires in this regards). Sure beams are always stronger and us wire users love the beam users as they drag our weak signals in LOL. But they take time to spin round and as a caller an omni TX and RX on ALL open paths !

A good and very experienced radio friend of mine explained that paths from one station to another may well not be a straight line even. i.e. following great circle paths. RF can actually be bent up to something like 70 degrees in the ionosphere ! The military did some test based on speed of RF between 2 points on earth through DX and the waves arrived too late to be a straight great circle path. 

Which could only mean the waves were not only refracted down but also their trajectory changed within the ionosphere itself.

We really know very little about an open path. It maybe that a path could be multi hop from one station going one direction and less hops going back just for starters. Sporadic E can be involve in F2 layer DX as well forming part of the path. I often give big signals to S.America and USA Say S7 and the return signals are relatively low S2/S3. This can be antenna based of course, my RX being not so good if they have a beam at their end and myself just vertical wire, but then you would think with often big power us they would be giving me more S.

And in QSO the polarization of the QSO can change in one stations favour or not, it is often coming down elliptically polarized from what I have read which is neither vertical or horizontal but some mix of the 2.

Paths are largely unknowable what we do know is if one is open or not and someone happens to be listening or if you are listening ! This is slightly frustrating as we would like to know more. We can think about it and sometimes draw some kind of satisfactory conclusion or not at times.

Also some paths are much easier than others often related to geography. Japan seems quite easy from UK. Sometimes surprisingly so. S. America is easy, E coast USA easy and Canada, Carribean quite easy. Less lossy hops as they are sea hops.

West Coast USA much harder generally because what you think might be the path in your mind is not there is a lot of land to get through from UK to say California and even more difficult Mexico. If you look at the likely path from UK to Mexico it is maybe not quite what you think it is.. have a look on google earth with the yellow line tool. The entirely of both Canada and North America to get through. More hops more losses and potentially poor ground / desert / mountain ranges as well. Did Mexico once, incredibly hard contact for SSB at the time.



Another one is that UK to Australia can be a quite easy and reliable path on some bands at some times of day due to seasonal variations and also at times something called antipodal focusing and also a phenomena known as chordal hop.

Don't worry about this being a "ham" site, hams know a lot and can help CBers DX if you are not a ham. We are all in the same game here : ) It's all fast vibrating waves in wires/poles at the end of the day.

https://www.hamradioschool.com/post/chordal-hop-propagation

It keeps you thinking. It's a strange hobby one day you think you are the power station of all power stations and the  next you wonder if you antenna is even plugged in !

For 11m band the higher the SFI the better as a very rough guide.. there is more to it than that (like Solar CME's/Flares and Geomagnetic storms and a few other variables) but higher means more spots = more X rays getting to us to charge the atmos, this site is quite good for sunspots and SFI. In saying that don't discount lower SFI times as they can blow you away with nice surprises.

https://www.solarham.net/

Many Thanks for your time, effort of your detailed educational post, need to read it again ...regarding if antenna is plugged in, yes this happened & to me, few times was wondering if was something wrong with the antenna ... regarding paths know i did some DX i do get an idea what paths are more easy for my location
Thanks for your valuable time, sure will help more newbies like me

Οne path i am supersized not working at 11m, nearest Italy (Puglia) is just 100KM far & for about 1+ year i am operating, i heard Italians about 10-15 times max (not at all the band just single stations at times) ...FM from Italy plenty special now days becoming hotter ... about a week ago i heard one Italian using just 4W & managed to talk after 1+ year, that is it ... while stations from UK band (2000KM) appearing very often, then France as second
I remember before start the CB again was few summers days will hear Italians with PL-990X for almost all day & for 2-3 days at 11m, but that was not often ... i wait for that days to see what will happen

Every station has a "skip zone" not skip in the usual sense but a zone (usually specific regions of some countries) where we cannot speak to very often or maybe never that exists all around out station. This can vary band to band but we shall keep it relevant to 10/11m. 

It is beyond what our station can achieve line of sight and also it is beyond the ability of the ionosphere to reflect our signals that hit an ionized patch (at 27/28MHz). I find this is about 200miles, so I very very infrequently speak to Belgians and Dutch, N. France on 10/11m... too far for line of sight and too close for our signals to refract back down from the E or F layers. Instead the signals pass through into space as the angle is too high to refract at any nominal charge levels.

Depending on where your station is geographically and your elevation (or height above average terrain) this seems to be something between on average 50-200 miles. It can a be done with tropospheric ducting on occasions.

Seen more easily here:


Skip can start to appear 260-270miles + in my experience. For example edge of Dutch-German border is 1 contact I made on 11m and literally just once so far. Somewhat unintuitively these are the most difficult contacts of all.

Switch to 40m ham band and all you might hear Dutch, Western Germany, Belgians and French (even many UK stations from Scotland/Wales/N.Ireland/Ireland etc.) some afternoon/evenings when conditions are right.

This is because the wavelength is longer and NVIS (near vertical incidence skywave) refraction can be supported i.e. the signal sent at high angles returns to earth very well. Also often a factor related to antenna close to the ground  (as they are clumsy and long so we cannot make them high very often) and because antenna is close the ground much is reflected from ground upwards, at very high angles. 

Also the phenomena of "Inter-G" on 40/80m is the same thing, so north and south England Scotland and Wales can QSO nicely. Sometimes... and an interesting fact is that this seems to often coincide with Sporadic E on 10/11m - so it may be that the E layer plays a big part in these very short hops on the longer wavelength ham bands. (Super intense charges reflecting very high angle radiation.)