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 I have to get this right first time

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13oots2
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4694, M7EUS
Posts : 232
Times Thanked : 14
Join date : 2022-11-13
QTH or Location : Dorchester UK
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT950, 66FT Endfed Antenna, Various Other Bits and Pieces
Age : 57

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PostSubject: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeSun Jul 02, 2023 10:51 am

I am paying my cleaner to run my 66ft endfed around my loft, at the moment it is rather haphazard, and I am sure that running it properly in the loft will improve things. This is a one attempt effort and hopefully will improve things for both reception and transmit, so I need to get it right first time.

I was thinking of running the antenna around the perimeter of the loft, which should take up most of the length, is this going to be the best way? Would zigzagging the run improve things, or is it just a case of hoping for the best?

This is probably one for our resident indoor antenna expert, yes, I am pointing a gnarled index finger at you Victor Very Happy
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Alan Pilot
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Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
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Equipment Used : Yaesu FT-991A,,Yaesu FTDX-10,,Icom ic-7300,,Anytone AT-D878UV PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.
Age : 15

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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeSun Jul 02, 2023 1:22 pm

Not sure on your question sorry.
Got me thinking tho as i was going to change the wire on mine.
Just as a test i thought i would add a 10mtr length i had lying around but bring it vertical well almost lol.
Well i now have a so called flat V with a bit of a slope ending in a 10mtr sloper if you get what i am saying.
SWR is even better now witch i couldn't believe 1.3 on 20m no tuner.
Strange but fascinating playing with a bit of wire.
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Victor
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Victor


Call Sign : 26-CT-3228 / M7VIC
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Join date : 2019-11-10
QTH or Location : Bedford
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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeSun Jul 02, 2023 4:37 pm

Ha! Ha! Resident indoor antenna 'expert'.....I just happen to be the mad fool getting away with my loft affairs Mark. Wink I have to get this right first time 1f44d 

(Our Neal-SangueG does impressively well too!)

I remember too well how dismissive some 'input' was to the whole notion of an indoor antennas ranging from proximity to household electrics/electronics causing QRM woes all the way to how it just simply 'wont work' as if roof tiles etc. would somehow be blocking RF signals. I didn't have much choice in it really and was pleasantly surprised that all the warnings received didn't actually amount to much.

However it did takes a few attempts to 'get-it-right' and my poor suffering wife who had so willingly volunteered to string up the first antenna landed up making more trips than envisaged!!

I did start off with a fan dipole array (suggested by many) and although it all worked it didn't work terribly well. Each resonant dipole length added on seemed to affect the others resonance and probably more by proximity than anything else. Lot of faff with that setup and only gave me limited bands.

The second setup was a 'doublet', essentially two wires much as a dipole but with the addition of a tuner or antenna matcher and I managed to squeeze in the famous '44 foot Doublet' espoused by many a Ham. Not however without as much trouble as first thought. Trying to squeeze a 44 foot length into a 22 foot loft proved more difficult than expected with various options of how to 'squeeze' it all in.


A 'loop' was tried and although it worked the performance left a lot to be desired.
(You would have thought it'd work being similar to the American 'Squalo' or square halo setup but re-opening the ends made for a great improvement.)

A 'spiral' was also tried looping each end into two spirals to fit into the limited space. This also 'worked' as in it could be matched onto the bands but SWR isn't everything and it performed worse than the loop. (Much to the annoyance of my wife furious with yet another demand of visiting the spiders!)

So what did I land up with?

Zig-Zagging proved to be very effective both for fitting into the crammed space but also in terms of performance. It was miles better than any setup tried so far and has served me well. Details of such a method can be found here :-

"qsl.net/kk4obi/Center-fed ZigZag dipoles Horizontal.html"

(You'll have to copy & paste the address between the quotes as use of white spaces prevents a direct link. Rolling Eyes )


As you can see it doesn't make much of a difference to the performance of a dipole and shouldn't make much of a difference to an end fed either.

In actuality my wires are strung out from a central point on the apex of the roofline for a little way (current maximum, voltage minimum) before following down one roof rafter then hopping across to the next rafter before going back up. This continues up one side of the roof and down the other in a castellated effect rather than a true triangular zig-zag but seems to work without any difficulties.

This all worked well in both performance as well as matching ability and it wasn't long before I requested my ever suffering wife to extend the lengths now that it could all be fitted in. It all soon became a 66 foot doublet and once enough wire was scrounged finally a 135 foot doublet. I can 'tune' the damn thing from 160m to 6m and it's working out well for me.

All of this is a ladderline fed antenna so that I don't have to unduly worry about SWR even when matching it to a non-resonant length. (Non-resonant, that'll send shudders into some.)


So with my usual waffle how can I maybe 'help' you out with your conundrum?
(Waffle amounts to explanation of my mad quest!)


I also recently tried out a homemade typical end fed for 40m to 10m (the one with the 35uH coil six foot from the end) and strung this beastie up outside from the roofline out of an air-vent half way up the roof down to the washing pole at the end of our shortish 33 foot length garden. It just fit and I hoped it would improve my dismal attempts at the 10m challenge. It had a 'natural' SWR point on 40/20/10m and with a little persuasion of the 'tuner' 30/15/12m also.......

It worked....but was a bag of proverbial cr*p compared to my attic mounted 135 footer!!
(So much for an outdoor antenna. Wink Yes, having two antennas strung up at once meant I could compare them.)

But, I have the 49:1 matching toroid sat here and just hooked it up to half of my doublet to see how that would perform as a back-and-forth end-fed. Lo and behold it works a treat having the 'multiple resonant or low SWR points' of a typical end fed and with tuner persuasion pulls in other frequencies too. (Performs much better than my previous end-fed attempt and probably due to way more height.)


So, long story short (me?) I'd zig-zag it Mark, especially if this is going to be a one-shot affair. I have to get this right first time 1f44d 


All the best,
Victor




Has my 10m experience improved? Definitely compared to other antennas I've made but I'm still not doing well on the 10m challenge. Then again I don't have the location....I'm only 80 odd foot above sea level yet nearly 80 miles away from the sea! Surrounded by 'walls' of the Bedford valley I have issues. Those on the coast seem to do well and those in the clear, up higher or generally not in my deep-dark-hole do better than I. This proved by the local web and Kiwi SDR located near me, mind you I receive as much as he does even with my loft mounted monstrosity!


Remember, any antenna is definitely better than no antenna...even if someone tells you it's not. (Nothing but best-of-the-best adventures will lead you onto a never ending quest!)

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13oots2
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4694, M7EUS
Posts : 232
Times Thanked : 14
Join date : 2022-11-13
QTH or Location : Dorchester UK
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT950, 66FT Endfed Antenna, Various Other Bits and Pieces
Age : 57

I have to get this right first time Empty
PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeMon Jul 03, 2023 3:36 pm

Thank you Victor, that was pretty close to an essay explanation, although I wouldn't expect less from you Laughing

It seems you have tried pretty much everything I thought of with the addition of spirals, that was a new one on me.

I don't seem to get QRM with my setup now, and it is running really close to the mains wires in the loft, only 10m meter budges the signal meter. I recall the woes I had with the CB on pretty much any band or frequency. The noise and filtering reduction in my FT950 must be much better.

Looks like my cleaner will be running a crenellated wire for me when it cools down. I don't think there will be many arachnids in my loft as the cat thinks they are fair game, perhaps that could be the solution for your wife, get a cat.

Will read up on the link you kindly provided and absorb as much of it as I can.

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Alan Pilot
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Alan Pilot


Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
Posts : 2542
Times Thanked : 69
Join date : 2019-11-19
QTH or Location : Anglesey North Wales
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT-991A,,Yaesu FTDX-10,,Icom ic-7300,,Anytone AT-D878UV PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.
Age : 15

I have to get this right first time Empty
PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeMon Jul 03, 2023 3:50 pm

Your cleaner man or woman ?.
Ice cold beer in he fridge.
Drop o Gordons with cold tonic and ice.
For when the job is done will cool him/her down.
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13oots2
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Major contributor



Call Sign : 26-CT-4694, M7EUS
Posts : 232
Times Thanked : 14
Join date : 2022-11-13
QTH or Location : Dorchester UK
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT950, 66FT Endfed Antenna, Various Other Bits and Pieces
Age : 57

I have to get this right first time Empty
PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeMon Jul 03, 2023 4:16 pm

Alan Pilot wrote:
Your cleaner man or woman ?.
Ice cold beer in he fridge.
Drop o Gordons with cold tonic and ice.
For when the job is done will cool him/her down.
 Paul the cleaner is on a keto diet, which means no carbs, plus he drives here. Could just take him outside and use his window cleaning gear on him Laughing
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Alan Pilot
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Alan Pilot


Call Sign : 163-CT-220...MW7TTA
Posts : 2542
Times Thanked : 69
Join date : 2019-11-19
QTH or Location : Anglesey North Wales
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT-991A,,Yaesu FTDX-10,,Icom ic-7300,,Anytone AT-D878UV PLUS",,LINCOLN II+.
Age : 15

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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeMon Jul 03, 2023 4:40 pm

Can't entice him with a cold drink then.
?????????.
Could be warm for some time and you got to get it sorted.
My last 12 hour map the 5 or 6 down to the right this morning where a nice surprise
I have to get this right first time Psk10.

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Victor
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Call Sign : 26-CT-3228 / M7VIC
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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeMon Jul 03, 2023 5:21 pm

'Crenellated', that was the word I was trying to think of Mark! Wink
(Never been much of a Scrabble player.)

Yeah, apologies for my typical waffle but thought explaining what I'd already tried might save others the time and bother.

Cat? We've got one....or actually don't but the neighbours cat thinks it's all hers anyway. Rolling Eyes


I wish you well with it all Mark, the pair of us have got some way to go to catch up with our Alan! Very Happy
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skyrider
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4654
Posts : 359
Times Thanked : 2
Join date : 2022-09-25
QTH or Location : Preston, Lancs.
Equipment Used : UNIDEN 100, midland alan 78 plus multi + mag mount , silver rod
Age : 64

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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeMon Jul 03, 2023 6:56 pm

strewth that's a word Victor are we allowed to ask exactly what that means ?   Laughing Laughing Laughing

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13oots2
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4694, M7EUS
Posts : 232
Times Thanked : 14
Join date : 2022-11-13
QTH or Location : Dorchester UK
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT950, 66FT Endfed Antenna, Various Other Bits and Pieces
Age : 57

I have to get this right first time Empty
PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeMon Jul 03, 2023 7:05 pm

skyrider wrote:
strewth that's a word Victor are we allowed to ask exactly what that means ?   Laughing Laughing Laughing

Think of the walls of an old castle where they go up and down in steps at the top of the wall, that is crenellation.

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skyrider
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4654
Posts : 359
Times Thanked : 2
Join date : 2022-09-25
QTH or Location : Preston, Lancs.
Equipment Used : UNIDEN 100, midland alan 78 plus multi + mag mount , silver rod
Age : 64

I have to get this right first time Empty
PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeTue Jul 04, 2023 9:49 am

is that where they used to shoot their arrows from while hiding behind  Very Happy
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13oots2
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4694, M7EUS
Posts : 232
Times Thanked : 14
Join date : 2022-11-13
QTH or Location : Dorchester UK
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT950, 66FT Endfed Antenna, Various Other Bits and Pieces
Age : 57

I have to get this right first time Empty
PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeTue Jul 04, 2023 4:00 pm

skyrider wrote:
is that where they used to shoot their arrows from while hiding behind  Very Happy

That's the one. Not only should my antenna receive well, it will be a great home defence system.
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I have to get this right first time Empty
PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeWed Jul 05, 2023 3:47 pm

13oots2 wrote:
skyrider wrote:
strewth that's a word Victor are we allowed to ask exactly what that means ?   Laughing Laughing Laughing

Think of the walls of an old castle where they go up and down in steps at the top of the wall, that is crenellation.
I thought it was Castilation but that sounds very painful  affraid
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Victor
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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeWed Jul 05, 2023 4:32 pm

At least we're all learning or recalling words.

Such discussions usually land up with arguments about whether it's an "Antenna" or an "Aerial". Wink
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13oots2
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Call Sign : 26-CT-4694, M7EUS
Posts : 232
Times Thanked : 14
Join date : 2022-11-13
QTH or Location : Dorchester UK
Equipment Used : Yaesu FT950, 66FT Endfed Antenna, Various Other Bits and Pieces
Age : 57

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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeThu Jul 06, 2023 7:16 am

Victor wrote:
At least we're all learning or recalling words.

Such discussions usually land up with arguments about whether it's an "Antenna" or an "Aerial". Wink

I always remember it's antenna, Aerial was the Little Mermaid Laughing

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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeThu Jul 06, 2023 8:00 am

Victor wrote:
At least we're all learning or recalling words.

Such discussions usually land up with arguments about whether it's an "Antenna" or an "Aerial". Wink
How about the 1980s   TWIG   scratch
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Victor
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PostSubject: Re: I have to get this right first time   I have to get this right first time Icon_minitimeThu Jul 06, 2023 8:26 am

Nice reminiscing about that one Bernie....."What rig you running? What twig you got?" Smile


Antenna, Aerial, Twig, whatever we call it I just know it's all damn good fun and amazing what a bit of wire, rod or metal pipe can actually do! I have to get this right first time 1f44d

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