Sky for Xmas? - Goodbye HF my old friend - VDSL QRM

Hi All,

I hope you're keeping well and enjoying your radio. Did you have a good Christmas?


My Christmas was pretty good as we spent a few days with one of our daughters and had a wonderful time. The return home saw me hobbling to my radio shack with an itch that only powering up my radios could quell.

Something unexpected greeted me on 80m...as well as 40m, 30m, in fact pretty much all of the lower HF bands......S7 to S8 of tremendous noise!!

That was on LSB and upon switching to AM the most terrific garbled buzz shocked me with S9+20 all over the place. Oh ball-aches, (or words to that effect.)


I've only ever had something similar happen last Christmas when a few of the neighbours decided to light up the whole village with their 'personal' seasonal lighting strewn all over their homes but this hasn't happened this year with a distinct lack of lights. (Cost of living crisis? Who knows.)

I threw the switch on the mains panel, connected the radios to my old lead acid battery backup and no......still massive amounts of noise.


Now, the end of the summer saw a BT van plonked by the old village telegraph pole near us soon to be followed by a couple of lorries. One was loaded with telegraph poles and the other with some sort of lifting equipment. After a day of blocking the village road making it impossible for cars to leave this end of the village to the main road they had replaced the pole and rewired the houses with spanking new lines.....apart from ours? We've never been a BT customer so I presume cutting the line (plus leaving it unceremoniously strewn across our front garden!) was just par for the course.

I've no idea why they went to such lengths especially as pretty much most of the village are Virgin customers being lucky with the original NTL fibre optic installation some years back. I never thought much more about it, just another day having a 'nose' out of the window entertaining my housebound existence.


That memory of the summer shenanigans did have me thinking and I immediately got my old iPhone out and checked the Wi-Fi networks available......

I was greeted with the usual Virgin networks of our own internet and the immediate neighbours but something gave me that uncomfortable feeling in the pit of my stomach. The strongest signal received and never seen before was a 'Sky' network. Oh pooh.  


With that I followed the usual routes of QRM investigation and read a lot of RSGB material concerning such issues. (Never read before, because I wasn't affected before.) A hobble around my house armed with a shortwave receiver just on it's telescopic antenna but neatly folded away saw a huge rise in noise the moment I approached the wall of one of my neighbours. In the other direction to the other neighbour party wall saw the noise drop some giving me an idea of which neighbour might have had a Sky installation performed.

Sure enough after talking to the neighbour they had a new Sky installation 'just-in-time-for-Xmas' so they could be entertained over the festive season. Being thrilled that they no longer install a big dish on the front of the house they were very happy even exclaiming the "awesomely-fast" 60mbps internet speed. (?) I told them we get 300mbps on Virgin which is way faster and also.......it doesn't wipe out radio!

Explaining and even demonstrating my woes fell on deaf ears. Empathy seems to be something that has disappeared from society nowadays.....

This despite me having my antennas firmly hidden away, complying with the EMC directives and also remaining at QRP level with my Foundation licence limits often running even lower power. Mostly with respect to my neighbours and living a quiet village life....what a sucker I feel now.


So what to do?

Complain to Ofcom? Notify the RSGB? BT? Sky?

From what I've already read about such QRM issues these actions haven't heralded results. As Amateur Radio operators we do number in the few compared to the potential millions of paying-customers that utilise VDSL. Money talks.


There's probably many of you screaming at that screen with shouts of 'ferrites', 'filters', get that antenna outdoors, 'buy a better rig' and a whole host of unfounded "mate-of-a-mate-told-me" suggestions. I already know that many re-hash, regurgitate, plagiarise and often extol the virtues of certain technologies such as QRM 'eliminators', active antenna circuitry on loops or 'mini-whips' with claims of success but I personally haven't found one that works yet. (A simple three resistor -10dB attenuator produces better results!!)

(Phase elimination with 'noise' antennas can be found in early radio books from the 1930's & 1940's being re-hashed again and again over the decades. Even the 'mini-whip' circuitry can be found in it's original Elektor 2006 magazine form, plus an earlier G3 Ham example in the 1990's and even earlier magazine articles back to when FET or Field Effect Transistors first came to market in the 1960's!)


So again, what to do?

At the moment I'm more than deflated so have simply switched the radio off. (I'll think on more in the New Year.)


I now understand why the 'local' Hams utilise webSDR's for their Nets often missing out on the low power Foundation holders desperately trying to call in. (Back when I could hear them!) Unless you're hitting me above S7-8 or so I am no longer going to hear you that's for sure.  

I can still use the upper HF bands, (even 20m has some new noise though), and surprisingly for a VDSL problem I have a new 'buzzing/clicking' up on the UK CB band.(??!??) 2m still sees me 'overloaded' by the local repeater up my backside and my past forays with 70cm beams greeted me with empty repeaters.

I haven't tried FT8 yet.....maybe it'll cut through the crud and my Morse adventures might herald me some results.


Perhaps you're not affected by such woes and like me never give it a thought until you're afflicted too.

VDSL.......it's a coming to a street near you soon.


(For an example of the type of noise now affecting me check out our local KiwSDR at :- http://radioremote.myddns.me:8085/ which seems to be afflicted as much.)



Happy New Year?

For me it will remain to be seen at least radio wise and for those similarly afflicted you have my deepest sympathies.


Otherwise I wish you all the very best for the New Year.


All the best,
Victor

Not good Victor.

I have all sorts of noises on various bands.
Being in more less the centre of an estate which has got bigger over the years new noises
appear every so often.
Some have got to be what you have and now a nasty very loud rasping noise has appeared on
2metres, right across the band and goes on for hours at a time. I believe this is from at least
one EV charger that is a hundred metres away, the beam peaks it up quite well so I'M sure that
is what it is.

The good thing is I find FT8/FT4 being very narrow band still allows me to operate.
If I was interested in SSB it would be much harder to operate.

I find the noises on HF worst on the vertical of course but the cobweb does not pickup so bad.
I have ferrited most of our house and my gear, it knocked a bit off the noise but most comes from
other neighbours imo.

BTW HNY

Not good my old friend Victor.
I don't know what you can do and if you don't then we are all doomed.
We have 2 next door and the one across from us that have recently had this new sky no dish gizmo fitted.
Not sure on the ADSL or VDSL internet but me and my son both have our own lines with a 60+meg connection.
But i don't get any noise from any of that stuff.
Me thinks it is time for a new mower cable but outside plus an email to the powers that be you never know.
I do hope you can get this sorted as i can't live without my radio now and i think you are very much the same.
All the best to you and yours for the new year my friend.

Really sorry to hear of your unwanted xmas gift Victor. I sincerely hope that you can remain positive and do everything in your power to work on both addressing the source of the noise and working through it by rejecting as much as you can using equipment in your own home.

Like Alan, and I am sure like you, I would not be able to live happily without my radio. If I was in your position I would do all the below:

Not a quick fix, and you might feel it will do nothing, but write to Ofcom to complain as the RSGB has asked. See link below. You might of read before, but posting to make everyone is aware as the more complaints received the higher the chance something will be done.
https://rsgb.services/public/publications/vdsl/200408_vdsl_call_to_action_article_in_radcom_may_2020_edition.pdf

Complain to Sky. They say take this seriously, write them and see if they do. Note the statements about the coastguard and RNLI volunteers in below link. When complaining I would emphasise the "Service" side of ham radio that is being affected, e.g. having frequencies clear to assist in life and death emergencies, and not so much that the fact you can't hear that rare DX station in Bouvet.
https://helpforum.sky.com/t5/Broadband-Talk/What-to-do-if-I-suspect-my-Sky-equipment-is-causing-RF-interference/ba-p/2770851

Write to the line owning company, Openreach I guess, to complain to ask about line balancing and notch filtering. I have read previously and watched vids about some people having a degree of success from this and whilst the noise is not totally gone it has been reduced by a few s points.

As far as equipment for rejecting the noise, I am confident you know already some things to try and so any suggested input from me probably isn't going to help. But from the projects I have seen you build from scrap to date I am sure you'd be able to assemble a directional mag loop on a rotator in your loft or maybe a compact yagi based around something like mechanical screwdriver type antennas.


I hope you can still work digital, fingers crossed, as you were really getting into it recently. I will be giving it a proper go within the next couple of weeks, so it would be great to get you in the log.

Chin up and my fingers crossed for you.

Really appreciated Lads and thanks for your input.


Mike,

I really feel for you with your QRM woes and also stand in awe at your efforts in navigating around such issues. (My 'ferrite' costs have escalated more than I'd have liked!) I've mentioned before that your digi-mode work has often given me a much needed boost in my own radio interests and helped push my FT4/8 work so far. I can only thank you most sincerely even just for that.

You have me thinking regards your 2m mention as I noticed a blanket of buzzing when I was going to try some 2m FT8 which like you seems to last for hours on end. Something else I'll have to investigate!

The very best to you and have a great New Year.


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Alan,

Yes my friend, more "lawnmower" lead thrown around may help somewhat and I think this time I'll have as much neighbourly consideration as I've received.
("What's that wire for?"....."The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe.......Narnia business!" )

My very best wishes to yourself, Linda & loved ones for the New Year.


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Neal,

Some brilliant input there mate and all very much appreciated. (You have a great way of providing info not only for the original poster but also those who may also read through such posts.) I undoubtedly have some options I can try or paths to follow.

Excited about your interest in digi-modes and definitely puts another proverbial feather in your cap. I hope you find it as enthralling as many of us have done with distant contacts achievable and a better appreciation of propagation effects. It still amazes me that even when the bands are 'closed' with no SSB chatter there's always some FT8 action on the go! I look forward to adding you to my log with as much thrill as when I caught our Alan.

Very best wishes to you and loved ones for the New Year too my friend.



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My ever suffering wife has given me quite the pep talk recently which with all of your input has given me some much needed fuel to carry on.

She explained she was always amazed that with pretty much next to nothing I've got as far as I have with my radio adventures. Apparently my smiles of excitement on the day she turned up with a broken valve radio or the joy I show at 'discovering' lengths of wire both amuses and pleases her no end.

I'm glad my apparent madness puts a smile on her face as much as it does mine.


I shall treat all of this new 'problem' much as I have faced others so far, with relish, fortitude and hopefully a successful outcome. If any of my findings are useful I will also endeavour as ever to share my results with everyone I can whether here as well as elsewhere. It might come in useful for at least one and keeps with the true radio spirit.


My very best to you all, with well wishes for the New Year to come.

Just to give an idea how digital can beat the hash.
Just worked VE7ON CM89 on 20metre FT4 thru the christmas light hash.
Christmas light hash is S9 plus a bit so not to bad, he gave me -04 I gave -11.

HNY Mike

Nice one Mike.  

Gives me hope that I might even bag Canada again despite the new noises.


Many thanks,

HNY &73

well that was a good start for your first forum post    .

it looks like someone has just deleted their derogatory post

Don't worry Lionel, usual Troll.

skyrider wrote:

well that was a good start for your first forum post    .

it looks like someone has just deleted their derogatory post

Dam i missed it lol.

Alan Pilot wrote:

skyrider wrote:

well that was a good start for your first forum post    .

it looks like someone has just deleted their derogatory post

Dam i missed it lol.

Me too. 

Come on Victor PM time me thinks lol.

Sheesh you lot are animals.

It was the typical "who we should be contacting via radio and who we shouldn't" with a political stance and a poke at my current QRM misfortunes. (Anti-social regardless with the usual anonymity.....instantly banned.)



Anyway, no one interested in how I've overcome my QRM issues?


I shoved the missus up the loft and made her tie the end of the doublet together to make a 20m loop. S9 of hash dropped to S2!

Brilliant on 20m.....wouldn't tune to anything lower, wasn't that great higher except on 10m.

Made her go back up today and untie it but this time flop the ends of the doublet in the opposite direction to where they were. Noise is back (albeit a bit lower at S5) but now I have all the bands back.

Along with a big modification to my ATU (poor man's variable inductor with binary switched toroids) I can get a 1:1 SWR everywhere including the SW broadcast bands.

Job's a good'un.


(Can contact any human being on the planet I care to who is fortunate enough to be on the other end of a radio.....well, at least with my QRP setup and digi-modes! )


"Radio" - much more fun as well as interesting stuff and er, oh yeah, what the forum is all about.


73

Glad you are getting some ware with the noise.
I have faith in you and know it won't get the better of you.

Tenacity Alan mate. That and utter determination!

Victor wrote:

Anyway, no one interested in how I've overcome my QRM issues?


I shoved the missus up the loft and made her tie the end of the doublet together to make a 20m loop. S9 of hash dropped to S2!

I can't make it up into my loft myself due to being too large for such activities, can I borrow your Missus for a morning? I'll go as far as buying in biscuits and sugar for the coffee.

Joking aside, am pleased you got the static hash down to a better level, are you using your home-brew QRM eliminator? I have much more manageable noise levels sice using the MFJ 1026.

yes i just caught it before he deleted it fast , any way we will move on from this 

Hi Mark,

I've already got a year of penance to serve before she'll ever "offer to help" ever again!
(She is incredible, especially regards my disability. )

No, just a change of direction on the dipoles ends seems to have a lot. They were hanging opposite from each other (66 foot antenna in a 22 foot width loft is a squeeze!) but from best observation now in the opposite direction of the noise source. I gave the missus my portable radio to see which end of the loft has the most interference with instruction to hang the doublet away from any.

I know you made mention of an MFJ-1026 and appeared to have had a lot of luck with it so glad it worked out for you.

Greetings and Happy New Year Victor!

This almost sounds like a lose-lose situation of which I faced six years ago. I was almost resigned to "mobile only" operation thanks to S9 buzzing on my rig when a friend in my area suggested trying his magnetic loop antenna, that was used whenever he went portable.

He came over and set it up in the shack and we rotated it until the noise level dropped to S2/3. For the first time in years I actually could hear QSO's taking place on every band, and though limited on output power, I can at least enjoy more of the hobby now (have had my own loop ever since).

Perhaps you'll know someone who'll let you borrow a mag loop to see if it would help in your situation.

Regards,
Woody

Hi Brian and a very Happy New Year to you also.  


Cheers for the suggestion of a magnetic loop and glad that one worked well for you.

I did actually build my own one a little while back and had fun with it :-

https://charlietangodxgroup.forumotion.com/t4456-homebrew-magnetic-loop

Wasn't a scratch on the newer doublet though but did consider making an active version with some extra circuitry. I did also build a simple active antenna as well some time back (much like the mini-whip but the older original circuitry) and dug that out but the length of my 30 foot short garden didn't see me able to get far enough away from the noise.

I'm back up and running for now but always on the lookout for viable alternatives that I can explore and build.


Thanks again and all the best to you.

73,
Victor

Sorry to read this, i understand how annoying is, because luckily for me, rear nights i get noise at almost all SW Band
Perhaps one of these suggestions that you may know or heard ... but twisting the most important cables in 4-5 circles should cut down some noise
Few examples
1) twisting power supply from socket to dab+ radio make it has slight easy reception at dab & fm i can hear less noise at radio stations (weak signal area)
2) at my cheap ic regulator fro the pni6500 twisting the cable from socket to unit, i measure about 0,4V more & now Amps are more steady using the TX button at 8 watts
3) my vhf dipole & pni ml160 antennas are twisted about 15cm circle and seems less noise at reception, it seems does not hurt transmission because the vhf antenna with 4 watts eurosonic es200 hear me in the UK, at this rg58 cable is about 5 meters twisted

It will not stop the issue but may helps, perhaps worth to try ... it seems to me (i can be wrong) that some how the noise is getting into the house maybe by electric house wiring ... try to move more far the effected equipment from wall wiring or sockets

silly suggestion but try to cover close by, some long aluminum foil the TX transmitter or the effected equipment .. or maybe even better some long aluminum foil to cover the electric sockets where equipment use the electric source ... i am reading this fibre optic stuff can effect metal surfaces

Maybe check if can complain regarding human health by constantly air waves electromagnetic radiation

Good Luck i know how you feel


EDIT if the cables can bot be twisted because they are just about, just for testing, try put around them (all the way) some cooking aluminum foil & sorry for my not so good English ... & try call the company (Sky)

sorry again me, before anything should first try if you are lucky an other electric socket the effected equipment, even if is more far (use extended electric cable good quality) ... even from an other room just for testing

and after you have been testing make sure you put it back before you get found out 

Hi Babis,

Thanks for the suggestions and your posting, it all adds up when people come together with their ideas.   

Coiling cables, (air spaced inductors), foil shielding etc. are all valid ideas and you only have to cut apart a modern day Ethernet/LAN cable to see them effectively utilise old Alexander Graham Bell's ideas of "twisted pair" conductors as well as more modern additions such as aluminium foil.

You're also right in that many interfering signals can be found on the mains wiring due to PLT technology with a surprising amount of higher frequency noises even on the Earth cable. (So transmitting/leaking from everywhere!!) 

My QRM woes and I presume many others are due to such "technological wonders" of pushing high speed data and therefore RF interference through cabling systems that weren't specifically designed for such use. However certain organisations make a lot of money from such things and don't care about apparently "small" problems so therefore spilling their pollution into the electromagnetic spectrum like a proverbial Exxon Valdez disaster(!!)

Thanks again to you and I hope you resolve your own QRM woes to satisfaction.

No need for apologies about your excellent English skills either, they are far better than my Greek would ever be.


All the very best to you,
Victor